RE: Thoughts on the South- American Man

From: Vincent Campbell (
Date: Mon 08 Dec 2003 - 14:21:00 GMT

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    Doesn't Cavalli-Sforza is his genes, peoples, languages show a fair bit of genetic data (some complex statistical computational process that he explains, but I don't even recall what it's called) that shows patterns of migration in various parts of the world?

    I thought the evidence that the Americas were populated by the so-called clovis peoples coming from Asia over the bearing landbridge and gradually down all the way into south america was pretty strong?

    For my money you could look at the emergence of "ancient" civilizations, in other words ones that have large monumental buildings, complex socio-political systems etc. etc., and how they all appeared in the Americas a fair bit later than in other parts of the world, not because natives in the Americas were backward or anything like that, simply they hadn't been there as long as the populations of Africa, Asia and the Mediterranean basin. I mean the maya, aztecs and inca were all around only a few hundred years ago- the lot at Teotichuan were around a few hundred years before that, but that's still hundreds of years after the last of the romans, say, and thousands after the egyptians etc.

    The only sticking point I think is interesting is on the north-east coast of north america, where some say that a few europeans landed during the last ice age (arriving by skirting the edge of the ice sheet that would've linked north america and europe to some extent), evidenced by some very non-clovis like tools that look more like ice age tools found in southern france.


    > ----------
    > From: derek gatherer
    > Reply To:
    > Sent: Monday, December 8, 2003 9:40 AM
    > To:
    > Subject: Re: Thoughts on the South- American Man
    > > By the way isn 't the Out- of- Africa hypothesis not
    > > contro-
    > > versial and for some dead wrong too !?
    > Of course, but the alternative homo erectus hypothesis
    > looks increasingly unlikely in view of the recent
    > advances in Y and mitochondrial lineages.
    > > But who is that guy you talk about !?
    > > Any interesting sites, maybe an email- address !?
    > > Something !? Thanks anyway........
    > I don't know where he is these days. But in the early
    > nineties he was the main South American working in
    > anthropological genetics.
    > > What I understand is that a claim is being made that
    > > Chinese, let's call them "boatpeople ", drift away
    > > and
    > > ended up at the shores of what is known now as
    > > South- America.
    > The problem is there is no archaeological evidence of
    > boats until much later.
    > But according to my
    > > source, there were potsherds found with what we
    > > can call Chinese influence, also the funny hats
    > > which
    > > people wear in Peru can be traced back to China,
    > > he says.
    > The museum of the Central Bank of Ecuador in Quito has
    > (or had in 1991) an exhibit which tries to point out
    > some similarities between pottery from Ecuador and
    > Japanese Jomon culture pottery. However, the dating
    > is a bit ropey, and it all seemed a little unlikely to
    > me (rather like seeing pyramids in Egypt and Mexico
    > and drawing the wrong conclusions). This exhibit does
    > not reflect any mainstream view in the field, nor did
    > it when it was constructed, probably in the late 50s.
    > > Was there in " recent " geological times a
    > > landbridge be-
    > > tween China and the South- Americas !?
    > No. 10000 years bp minimum.
    > > there must have existed an already high advanced
    > > society
    > > in South- America at the time other peoples crossed
    > > the
    > > Alaska bridge.
    > No, there's no evidence of this.
    > The history of the Maya's, Azteks and
    > > Olmeks makes it possible there was.
    > These are much later. Olmecs are 2600BC, if I recall
    > correctly. Mayas and Aztecs are in recent historical
    > time.
    > > What if their mutual origin was Chinese !?
    > > Does makes you wonder, doesn 't it !?
    > Wonder at what?
    > > The fossil record shows that the Aztek- civilisation
    > > was
    > > there 5000 year ago, it didn 't came out of the
    > > blue,
    > No, the Aztecs are from Mexico and emerged around 900
    > AD, reaching imperial status around 1100AD.
    > > Nothing excludes the possibility that a few sailors
    > > wandered off and ended up in Peru where they inter-
    > > breed with the locals or established an optimal
    > > environ-
    > > ment for themselves, stayed and laid out the
    > > foundations
    > > for the later South- Americas peoples........
    > what excludes it is:
    > a) no evidence of boats
    > b) no genetic evidence
    > c) no archeological evidence (except the spurious
    > Jomon pot idea)
    > but think for one minute that the hypothesis
    > > of the
    > > North- America migration- route is wrong, that there
    > > were
    > > already people in the Americas long before the
    > > Alaska
    > > bridge was crossed...what would be your answer !?
    > My answer is just that the standard view is for 3
    > migrations:
    > 1) Colvis peoples about 25000BC - descendents all
    > South Americans and most North Americans
    > 2) Na-Dene peoples about 8000BC - descendents many
    > Canadians and the Apache
    > 3) Inuit peoples about 2000BC - descendents Eskimo
    > The only hard evidence for this being wrong in any way
    > is the Kennewick man skeleton, who seems to be rather
    > bizarrely from the South Pacific, around Tonga or
    > somewhere. This is genuinely odd and interesting, but
    > if he represented a major immigration the genetic
    > legacy would be visible today, which it isn't.
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