Re: Is there any meme left to talk about !?

From: Van oost Kenneth (
Date: Sat 22 Nov 2003 - 21:12:25 GMT

  • Next message: Vincent Campbell: "RE: Is there any meme left to talk about !?"

    ----- Original Message ----- From: <> We can observe the phenotypic effect of memes, and from that deduce the symbolic structure behind them. This is no different than how we deduce physical laws, we cannot observe the laws that govern the universe directly however we can deduce them through observation. I think that the problem in the study of memetics is similar to the problems with the study of quantum theory. By attempting to deduce what memes someone is in possession of, we can wind up changing the symbolic! structure of there memes, simply through the act of observation. It would be difficult to set up experiments in which this is not the case. Basically what I am saying is that by asking somebody to verbalize an idea, in a survey or in another enviroment, you are changing the way in which they think of that idea.

    << Surely you can do that, but IMO than only if you are absolutely sure about people's honesty_ something that you can 't be sure of in the first place !

    Asking somebody, in very suble ways no doubt, if he has murderous thoughts about another will count to get an useful theory of the ground, but I doubt if that person, if he had such thoughts, don 't wanna ( memetically) conceal his real intentions, moods and thoughts ! Don 't you !?

    Deduction of direct behavior or the phenotypic effect of memes won 't be that simple at all ! Observing the laws of physics is in my book not quite the same as finding the symbolic structure behind one's gestures. The universe is not conscient in the ways we are, we conceal, we hide, we twist and turn every word, gesture, thought and mood_ NOT because we like it but all is due to the fact that the real ' Self ', the real me inside this container don 't really knows what or who he really is. All is conjecture and mostly part of the identity- concept we all possess. That is to say, for most of us, the identity we end up with is defined by the/ an outside, that is mostly ' a collective '. In others words, we need to be part of a collective to have an identity as such....hetero, homo, allochtone, right- winged, lefty, whitey, etc...

    Asking straightforward if one has murderous thought won 't bring you far up the latter of knowing what memes he possesses, he will lie, twist and turn. If the latter is just enough to deduce he has such thoughts, well that is simplistic !



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