RE: Silent memes

Date: Tue 08 Jul 2003 - 04:13:22 GMT

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    From: "Scott Chase" <> To: Subject: RE: Silent memes Date sent: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 00:01:50 -0400 Send reply to:

    > >From: "Richard Brodie" <>
    > >Reply-To:
    > >To: <>
    > >Subject: RE: Silent memes
    > >Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 17:23:08 -0700
    > >
    > >The fact that two different computer programs can print "hello world"
    > >does not lend credence to the notion that the printing caused the
    > >program rather than the other way around.
    > >
    > Yet the programs are indeed different and one might not look at these
    > programs and see isomorphy where one can abstract something out that
    > can be called a selfsame meme. Two different programs or the ideas
    > that led to these programs (programs being artifacts in their own
    > right as they are human creations on a disk somewhere perhaps on a PC
    > with Microsoft or an *evil* Apple Macintosh ;-) can lead to a similar
    > (or selfsame?) outcome (the printout).
    > Trying to arrive at the "hello world" outcome did cause these
    > different programs to be written by people. In a sense, the printout
    > (the goal to be achieved) did cause the programs via the mediation of
    > human ingenuity.
    > Shifting gears a little, with people as individuals within a culture
    > (versus your computer example as these computers aren't learning from
    > or exchanging with each other in the process of creating a selfsame
    > printout) we are looking at efficacy, meaning which way the causal
    > arrows point in reference to a situation. This may become a nasty
    > chicken and egg problem, but if it is the behavior that is selfsame
    > and the ideas which lead to this behavior that differ, these ideas are
    > not selfsame and one cannot easily argue for a selfsame meme at the
    > level of memory, but this selfsameness can possibly be abstracted out
    > at the level of behavior or something more externalized like an
    > artifact.
    > Looking at an artifact could cause differing ideations in two people,
    > yet given these differing ideations the two people could still produce
    > a similar reproduction (ectype) of the original object. The ideas will
    > be more different in each person than the objects they create using
    > these ideas.
    However, the relationships between the ideas and their respective environing cognitive gestalts would most likely be much more alike than either the ideas or the cognitive environments taken alone (simpliciter).

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