RE: Watches & Necklaces

Date: Thu 29 May 2003 - 22:13:27 GMT

  • Next message: Alan Patrick: "Re: Education and Genetics"

    > >From: Keith Henson <>
    > >Reply-To:
    > >To:
    > >Subject: RE: Watches & Necklaces
    > >Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 08:31:18 -0400
    > >
    > >At 12:58 AM 29/05/03 -0400, Scott wrote:
    > >
    > >>>From: Keith Henson <>
    > >>>Reply-To:
    > >>>To:
    > >>>Subject: RE: Watches & Necklaces
    > >>>Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 22:47:27 -0400
    > >>>
    > >>>At 09:10 PM 28/05/03 -0400, scott wrote:
    > >>>
    > >>>snip
    > >>>
    > >>>>So would you agree with Richard that education is a parasite?
    > >>>
    > >>>No, because I don't think Richard said that.
    > >>(clears throat)
    > >>
    > >>After I had elaborated on symbiont relations with the aid of
    > >>Minkoff's text, Richard had responsed (probably snipped from the
    > >>post you had read along with my rather pointed questions to him):
    > >>
    > >>(bq) "It would seem easy to extend this, then, to gene-meme
    > >>symbiosis. Education, for example, is parasitic because it reduces
    > >>genetic fitness. How about them apples?" (eq)
    > >>
    > >>You may have a greater command of the English language than I do.
    > >>Looking over what Richard said, is he saying that education is
    > >>parasitic or not? Maybe he was being facetious?
    > >
    > >Not at all. But there is a difference between what you said he said
    > >and what Richard said. The way you restated it is simply not true
    > >because it implies education being a parasite on the individual where
    > >Richard's states a well known fact about higher education, the kind
    > >that takes many years. Education and wealth in western culture has
    > >mixed effects, statistically reducing the number of offspring while
    > >improving their chances to survive.
    > >
    > >Humans have their own viewpoint which is not the same as either the
    > >memes they have or their genes.
    > >
    > >>>Education and closely associated wealth tends to reduced the number
    > >>>of children you have, but it does make the ones you have more
    > >>>likely to survive, in bad times *much* more likely to survive.
    > >>>This is just an extension of the K r spectrum.
    > >>I happened to be the one who added the allusion to the K r spectrum
    > >>to the mix, in response to Richard. So maybe we are in somewhat of
    > >>an agreement here?
    > >>>
    > >>>Though as I noted, humans just happen to react to education and
    > >>>wealth this way. Our evolution could have left us with the
    > >>>tendency to turn wealth into more kids. To an unknown extent this
    > >>>may be more cultural. Consider that bin Laden has 40 some odd
    > >>>kids, not unusual by Saudi Prince standards.
    > >>Good thing Abdul Aziz conquered Arabia and then oil was discovered
    > >>so that those petrodollars could trickle down to bin Laden's dad and
    > >>family via the construction business. Otherwise, so much for Saudi
    > >>wealth. The fortuitiousness of the al-Saud conquest AND striking oil
    > >>are an historical confluence that cannot be underemphasized in any
    > >>analysis relating to Saudi Arabian affluence.
    > >
    > >Certainly true. I presume you have read some of Bernard Lewis on
    > >this subject.
    > >
    > I've been listening to his _Crisis of Islam_ unabridged CD book in my
    > car over the past couple weeks. It's pretty good, but too concise IMO
    > on the early Wahhabi/Al Saud history and the advent of Adbul Aziz and
    > his Ikhwan warriors. He was right on from what I've read elsewhere on
    > the parts he does cover, but given his knowledge base and expertise
    > I'd have loved for him to get much more in depth on these areas.
    > I thought his discussion of suicide and how this subject is addressed
    > in the Hadithic literature of Muhammed's life and sayings was very
    > interesting in light of September 11 and the constant birrage of
    > suicide bombings against Israel by Islamist groups. IIRC the
    > anti-suicide injunction goes something like however someone commits
    > suicide in life shall be replayed eternally for them in death. In
    > other words, instead of paradise and however many virgins, those who
    > took out the Trade Center shall forever repeat that deed. Is that the
    > impression you got after reading Lewis's coverage of this topic? I
    > also liked his history of the fedayeen from the Assassins through the
    > present day.
    > He was rather fair and unapolegetic in his treatment of Islam. Great
    > book IMO, especially in pointing out how Muhammed was a warrior
    > himself and the jihad a part of Islam from the get go, where the
    > Reconquest and Crusades were more of a reaction to the European
    > encroachment of Islam, though the Crusaders took things way too far
    > themselves.
    For a more in-depth study of Wahhabism, along with a prestty good history of Islam generally, read THE TWO FACES OF ISLAM by Stephen Schwartz.
    > >If not you should. He states the problems with the
    > Islamic world as well >as can be stated without evolutionary
    > psychology and ecological views. The >situation there is no better
    > than that leading up to the Hutu/Tutsi >conflict--with the difference
    > that the USA is one of the participants. > >
    > _________________________________________________________________ MSN
    > 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
    > ===============================================================
    > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
    > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
    > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
    > see:

    =============================================================== This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing) see:

    This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Thu 29 May 2003 - 22:18:56 GMT