Date: Mon 17 Feb 2003 - 20:47:06 GMT
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <email@example.com>
> > Should we have been tolerant of Nazism, of Stalinism, of Pol Pot's
> > Khmer Rouge? NO. I am not discussing race, I am discussing
> > memeplexes here; violent and virulent and cannibalistic and
> > controlling religious ideologies. There is no such thing as the
> > oxymoronic 'absolute relativism' that could possibly equate such
> > mind-slavery with a freedom, choice and democracy stance.
> Didn 't say we should Joe ! But the point I was trying to make was
> that tolerance is always seen from our perspective, " we endure this,
> we endure that.... the ' I suffer and I don 't care '- stuff...." We
> see, from our perspective, and history prooved us right, that Hitler,
> Stalin and Pol Pot were ' wrong '. And yet, there is still the
> negative, normative orientation of the term tolerance itself. What we
> tolerate must be ' wrong ', must be a violation, must be a mistake,
> must be something that deranges us.
The difference is that we DO tolerate that which we do not embrace in others, so long as they do not endeavor to impose it upon us, while they insist upon the elimination of all things of which they, or their prison- house mindset, do not endorse and approve, and the imposition of their ideology upon all others, or their deaths.
> History prooved us right, no doubt about it, but in the case of Nazism
> the enslavement of the German people prooved to be a freedom and
> choise- stance_ for the ( most of the) German people at that time !
> Don 't get me wrong Joe, I ain 't keen on Stalin and Pol Pot either,
> but all positive characteristics of the term tolerance reflects our
> point of view not theirs, and I think that this deserves attention.
The points of view of the soulless butchers of millions deserve our attention????? I fear that with this contention you have traveled quantums beyond the pale, and I fail to see how you can find your way back to rationality and reason.
> This reflects ' cultural relativism ', this reflects that ' ours ' is
> better than their ' theirs '. The ' guilty- part is automatically
> identified, judged without trial and what can be seen is that the
> boundery of where tolerance begins and ends is arbitrary. Now today,
> right- winged folks are stigtimized, 60 years ago they were cheered at
> as liberators ( in Germany). And of course, freedom, choise and
> democracy are the best thing yet for all people, but you have to give
> history its credit too....
The fact that a massively deluded cult of personality cheered their avatar's waging of war upon Europe and the genocide of jews, gypsies and homosexuals does not make that lunatic's position worthy of serious consideration, except as a horrible aberration the repetition of which we must henceforth be vigilant to avoid.
> > > It is within both parties their convictions that the other must be
> > > personal blamed_ it is our personal fault that we are now faced,
> > > that they present us the convert- or- die ultimatum.
> > That's one of their problems; they believe that all that are not
> > clones of them are damned, and that they, too, are damned, unless
> > they force the convert-or-die ultimatum upon all nonclones. This is
> > just Borgian. And that ain't good.
> But how do we solve this dispute without killing eachother !?
> Of course, from their stance, we should be killed, but that ain 't the
> option I am keen on... So, any suggestion !?
Sometimes, unfortunately, it is kill or be killed, for those of the radical Al Quaedist ilk whom we leave alive have pledged to their god, for the salvation of their souls, to spend their lives endeavoring to kill us. I do not see how these memebotic berserkers can be successfully deprogrammed.
> > > The only things, sofar and at the present date I can come with is
> > > the question of how the individual is treated, how the indi-
> > > vidual is seen within both camps.
> > No, one of the primary differences is the separation of church and
> > state. In democratic countries people of many faiths, or none, may
> > peacefully co-reside, and there is no official state religion to
> > which all citizens' knees must bow - all are free to choose their
> > owm paths. However, there is no distinction between church and
> > state in Islam; the church IS the state, the government, and only
> > one church and one path - Islam - is allowed.
> Agreed, but in what I was trying to say, I expressed the same
> reasoning, though ! Free choise opposites ' a precise clearly defined
> frame '_ an im- posed framework ( here religion ).
That's right. Freedom vs. slavery. There is no way the two can be equated.
> > > We move at a different rate along a different way of evolution.
> > > Why are they than so eager to move up to our lane.....beats me !
> > The most radical among them are not interested in learning anything
> > from us but how to use our technology to produce weapons with which
> > they may kill us. They are trapped in a medieval mindset, which is
> > much more dangerous than the Christian Dark Ages because it is
> > coupled with the abilities to both produce weapons of mass
> > destruction and to easily and anonymously travel the globe to
> > wherever they desire to use them.
> That is something I said a long time ago, that we and they are trapped
> within our thinking- ways. We and they can 't escape the lineages set
> out by ours and their memes. But do they ' know ' they can 't win !?
> Are their memes, their ideas about how the world should be governed so
> strong that those are eager to kill the host in the process !? Or do
> we help them a little bit !?
Actually, only they are trapped; we are free, and they fervently desire to entrap the entire globe within their mind-prison, and kill the resistant. And I, for one, am quite as willing to kill and die to remain free as they are willing to kill and die to enslave us.
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Mon 17 Feb 2003 - 20:43:57 GMT