Re: Fw: Why Europe is so Contrary ( joe 1)

From: Kenneth Van Oost (
Date: Sun 15 Dec 2002 - 11:17:38 GMT

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    Hi Joe, sorry for this delay, got a lot on my mind these these, Kenneth,
    > > >>Agreed ! But will you account for the victims, the death of those
    > > >>people
    > > who will loose their lives in the US its imperfect attempt to free
    > > them !? The US have not to free the Iraqi people from slavery but also
    > > from a memetic deathlock. Even you recon that your attempt will be
    > > imperfect you can 't and will not do enough to comprehend the
    > > necessity for real structural reform, not only political but also
    > > socially, religiously, meme- tically ! IMO, the US, or any other
    > > country or institution isn't up to such a task. I hope I do get it
    > > wrong here, but if we can 't compensate the loss of individuality and
    > > identity the ' old ' structures will re- surface.
    > Precisely why immediate post-regime-change disengagement is not a
    > feasible option, and exactly where we will most require Europe's
    > assistance.

    >> And what way could we help !?
    To start education- programs, or to be a control- mechanism in order that the Iraqi- people would engage themselves to the democratic regime !? Love to help, but what we do !?

    > > That is to say, that within the context of Europe is contrary to the
    > > US, that each side works for and against it own degeneration. If thus
    > > Europeans see the Americans like you describe them as above, a certain
    > > amount of truth has to accompany this and vice versa of course.
    > My particular understanding is that all people should strive for the
    > maximization of the personal freedoms of each. To me, this means that
    > all individuals should enjoy all freedoms that do not conflict with the
    > freedoms of other individuals, and where inevitable conflicts between
    > freedoms arise, they should be resolved by equal and proportional
    > compromise.

    >> Yes, I understand a ' compromised ' freedom is better than not one
    at all, but I got still poblems with the memetic side of the coin, so to say. It is my view that what we will try to do, setting up freedom for the Iraqi- people, is exactually what memes ' wants ' us to do and that is contrary to the memes the Iraqi people have. The conflict between those two plexes could have huge consequencies for the neurological balance of the Iraqi- people. I hestitate to see the outcome of our efforts as positive. On the one hand, of course, on the other I still have doubts.

    > > The ideal to obtian freedom for all citizins made you blind for the
    > > fact that the efforts means ' un- freedom ' for others and for
    > > yourself ! I stand for authenticity ! And I cannot achieve this while
    > > one other is trying to achieve his or its ideal....while thus one
    > > other is intervening with my attempt(s) even those are committed in
    > > the best interest for myself !
    > There can be no individual authenticity genuinely achieveable under a
    > collectivized system, whether it is communist or fascist. Having read
    > Havel's THE POWER OF THE POWERLESS, I'm quite sure he would
    > agree.

    >> I meant with this that I couldn 't get authenticity if I, one Iraqi
    individual after my country has been freed from Saddam, can 't deal with the process of becoming one authentic individual if the framework is set up by a foreign force, with good intentions. IMO, the dictatorship of Saddam is simply re- placed of that of democracy ! As an individual I ain 't got the chance to develop myself in order to go from one regime to the next_ I need to have time to settle myself within the two frameworks offered to me, I need to know first who ' I ' am !

    Kenneth, Not even considering
    > > that for once Iraq has good intentions, whatever the reason may be, is
    > > denying that any diplomatic effort to solve the problem has a
    > > possibility the succeed. The US wants war ! You ask why Europe is
    > > contrary and we hestitate with giving you support!?
    > Practically NO ONE believes it. Saddam has lied copiously about such
    > matters before, and it remains to be seen whether the document deals
    > with the WMD's that we were sure he had even four years ago. And the
    > Iraqi people who are able to speak freely desperately want regime
    > change, and are more than willing to absorb the collateral casualties
    > necessary to achieve it rather than to continue to be enslaved and killed
    > unter their present situation.

    >> Ok, lying would be seen as an infringe upon the agreed conventions,
    but nitpicking upon a bad misplaced dot beats me. I understand that each point has its meaning, and I do understand that Saddam can 't be trusted, but anyway, like I understand it, the inspection teams never had find any weapon of mas destruction in operative mode, all what they got were small pieces and a lot of paperwork. If you go to my place and search it, you could easily assume I am a ter- rorist because I got products where I might produce a bomb with... The US negative air is IMO not convincing....

    > Suicidal the US is not! When the Clinton administration failed to
    > effectively respond to Al Quaeda attacks, Osama Bin Laden used that
    > nonresponse as a recruiting tool, labeling the US as a 'paper tiger', and
    > weaker than the Soviets in Afghanistan. He claimed, after Somalia, that
    > all that was necessary was to inflict casualties upon the US, and they
    > would yield. After 9/11, an entirely new lesson is being taught.

    >> Yes, of course, I agree, but the US never suspected to be attacked in
    the first place. The new lesson isn 't one that has been taught, it is more an ' emotional reaction ' upon a situation that America never had seen coming. It is a response to a stress- situation. The US, don 't misunderstand, can
    't deal with " stress "_ The US is so hooked up with the image it got of itself, and that was shattered on 9/ 11, that still it wants it revenge. You want to deal with the problem once and for all, but it misses the point, again, that by doing so, it makes things worse for itself. You got to solve the problem.. that is a complete diffeent approach !

    > > In the US creatonism is the red shred under its society, even Bush
    > > allows to give more money to schools and institutions who will teach
    > > creatonism above the Darwinian doctrine. If you believe for a fact
    > > that within the US church and state are separate things, believe again
    > > ! I don 't even believe that I, as the person I am, is separateble in
    > > that context !
    > There is very little money flowing into parochial schools here in Florida,
    > the only state where such a policy has been approved. Most of the
    > students who opted to try it have returned to public education of their
    > own volition. It is a failed initiative.

    >> Maybe so in Florida, but in the whole of the US !? I don 't know !
    Most of the students I have learned about, seen on CCN and read about in the papers, wanted to be educated within both the doctrines. Strange kind of behavior if you ask me ! Where does that urge for creatonism comes from !? You have to understand that within that doctrine, the hand of God is every- where and that, in a way, America is Gods own country, if you fail to see that the US its thinking ways are indoctrinated with what follows out of creatonism, well its beat me ! Maybe its me ! This means that the urge to free other people from a dictatorship is God- giving, because God ' created ' the American folks tha way ! IMO, that' s important, creatonism or not, I believe the US and Europe diffes in the way they think about things,and that is the main reason why we are contrary, both ways. What do you think !?



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