Re: The Intellectual Origins Of America-Bashing By Lee Harris

From: Grant Callaghan (
Date: Wed 11 Dec 2002 - 06:42:04 GMT

  • Next message: "Re: The Intellectual Origins Of America-Bashing By Lee Harris"

    In time of war people do reprehensible and illogical things -- regardless of which side they're on. It's the nature of war and the primary reason it should be the last possible solution to a political problem. But never expect people at war to be nice. That just ain't agonna happen (except by occasional individuals).


    >Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 17:24:31 +1100
    >Joe wrote:
    > >> >> >before this can happen, people vote to change things; thus, a
    > >> >> >democracy maintains itself between the intolerable and the
    > >> >> >perfect, in a perpetually evolving yet always tolerable spectrum.
    > >> >>
    > >> >> Bingo, but where does that lead to, a decline in USAnia-bashing or
    > >> >> an improvement in its foreign policy? Jeremy
    > >> >>
    > >> >It's been improving for quite a while; the US's most recent military
    > >> >interventions (in Bosnia, Kosovo, Haiti, Somalia, Afghanistan, and -
    > >> >possibly - Iraq) have been on the side of the angels.
    > >> >>
    > >> Only if you are an 'angel' Joe. That is the memetic problem - memes
    > >> only acceptance of the acceptable. Jeremy
    > >>
    > >Well, Baby Doc, Aidid, Milosevic, Karadzic, Mladic, Bin Laden and
    > >Omar didn't appreciate it any more than Saddam seems to relish the
    > >prospect - but you are known by your enemies as well as by your
    > >friends.
    >'Memes only accept the acceptable' is what I meant to say above. For
    >example there in an Australian incarcerated in Camp X-ray who fought
    >against Milosevic, Karadzic, Mladic and the Russians with the Mujahadin
    >(sp?). If any of them had captured him and held him in inhumane conditions
    >with no charge, no contact and no hope we would have tried like hell to get
    >him back and, if we did, many would have acclaimed him as a hero. Yet, as
    >he was captured by the 'angels' our Government is not interested in his
    >welfare in the least. As it is we don't know whether he was or wasn't
    >involved with terror as he has no human-rights, no representation, NO
    >CHARGE, no family contact and no hope of a finite detention but we don't
    >care cos we are pandering to the US cos we want trade liberalisation, (did
    >you hear how fast our PM wound back his rhetoric when Iraq threatened to
    >cancel wheat purchases?)
    >You can see that the same man fighting the same cause, at least in his
    >memetic construct it probably was, is treated entirely differently.
    >IMO, angels and devils are memeticly and culturally specific constructs
    >which lead to inescapably subjective opinion-making.
    >Lawry wants to talk about the formation and foundations of a new dialogue
    >between USAnia and the rest of the world, but we can't do that without
    >addressing the hypocrisy, deceit and bullying by the US. For you they may
    >be angels but IMO, for much of the rest of the world they are the devils
    >You may well ask why I am so cynical about USAnian Foreign Policy Joe;
    >Vietnam, in a word. I had my innocence stripped away by the realisation
    >that my mates died, were wounded or were mentally scared for the benefit of
    >Bell, Boeing, GE, Westinghouse, etc. As one USAnian General said, "it's a
    >shity little war, but it's the only one we have got".
    >IMO the USAnian military/industrial complex needs a war at all times in
    >order to justify its existence and to keep the stock-market up. War is kind
    >of like viagra for a flaccid market, but I've got no shares so I don't need
    >it to be hard all the time.
    >BTW don't think that this is "America (sic) bashing", it is just my attempt
    >at explaining the memetics of difference.
    >This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
    >Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
    >For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)

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