Re: Fw: Why Europe is so Contrary (joe 2)

From: Van oost Kenneth (
Date: Mon 09 Dec 2002 - 20:33:30 GMT

  • Next message: Wade Smith: "Re: Toward a new US-World dialogue"

    > I cannot understand this. Freedom cannot be compelled (that in itself is
    > a self-contradictory notion); it can only be permitted. And if people are
    > not equally free, then true and open discussion between them can
    > never be held.

    >> Yes it can ! I can 't withstand the sense that the Iraqi people, and
    there can be others ( Russians for instance) aren 't that keen to be ' free ' ! Don 't misunderstand me, but I base myself here on the notion which I tried to explain in my earlier post. There is a memetic deathlock in place which can 't be easily removed. See what happens in Russia of today, still people are not that keen towards individualism, identity and authen- ticity, for those still the meme is in place that they have nothing to gain from those notions and that in extent don 't have any possibility to have influence and those people stopped, and still are at a standstill, to be interested in those things. That is what I meant by that freedom will be compelled if you place its mechanism in the mids of the Iraqi people....

    > Actually, the entire problem is that these people suffer from dual
    > unfreedoms - to dictatorial regimes which manipulate enslaving
    > religious ideologies in order to perpetuate themselves. Until they are
    > freed of these constraints, we can never be sure what they themselves
    > would truly prefer.

    Yes ! And now you gonna try to put a mechanism into motion by which they will to be able to barter one system for the other in the understan- ding that they don 't know anything about the new one ! They don 't know even to act free ! The position I take has to do with the fact that within each individual the point of wanting to be free has to esthablish itself and lead towards a
    ' collective existential revolution within ' ( Havel) Otherwise I don 't see how the US its attempt will succeed in the short run....

    > The Iraqi people are crushed under an iron heel. They would dearly
    > love to be free of their oppressive dictatorship, but all who stay and
    > for it are murdered by a brutal military regime with all the weaponry,
    > is not above using weapons of mass destruction upon them. Those
    > who leave declare their desire for their country to be free, but can do
    > nothing in and of themselves to effect this liberation....( Snip)

    >> Remerber what I said about this, each individual is as well victim as
    perpetrator of the system where he/ she lives in. The way you vote is enlarged in the society you end up with... Of course, in the case of Iraq things are different, but nonetheless, didn
    't we, they or anyone else saw Saddam coming !? Probably they did, and did nothing ! The thing I mentioned by which we are all paralized to revolt works in that kind of cases. What it is, beats me ! The fear of loosing one's life, death !?

    > But I do not think that one can say that
    > people who are suffering under a military dictatorship too strong for
    > them to overthrow unassisted would be having their right of existence
    > removed if the rest of the world provided the liberating assistance they
    > so desperately need and desire.

    >> Yes, but its gonna be a question of existentalism !

    > Actually, most of the Muslim world is not living as they wish; they are
    > living in the way that the ruling cabal of mullahs and dictators self-
    > servingly enginneer for them, in order to keep their own hides in power.

    > > Actually, the same notion as mentioned ealier can be applied, that
    something holds them back to revolt not against their rulers but also against themselves ! This is memetical, this is what Blackmore said in the early years of memetics, that we, humans are the only species to fight our memes ( if of course no other species have them). I agree with her, but maybe the US and Europe are fighting the wrong war, and maybe it is afterall better to follow the way of Europe, fighting it out with words and arguments instead of bombs and artillery !?

    > When people are taught only useless religious dogma in their schools
    > instead of the knowledge and skills required to effectively compete in
    > the modern world, their array of conceiveable choices is being dictated
    > to them by those who wish to keep them ignorant and enslaved, fearing
    > that knowledge of freer and more informed alternatives would cause
    > them to chafe at their religious and governmental chains.

    > >Again I agree, but the fact remains that the modern world is one of
    our making, not theirs ! And aren 't we thaught useless dogma's of our history in the same way they are thaught religious dogma !? Christianity and nationalism are the worst kind of examples !

    > The extremists intimidate the moderates into acquiescent silence, so
    > that only the extreme voices are heard. Those who respond to them
    > with a desire to act, especially the poor wifeless religiously educated
    > young males, are shipped off to terrorize other nations in a vain search
    > for a houri-filled paradise rather than causing troubles for their own
    > country's religious and governmental totalitarianisms. This is the
    > antithesis of individualism; it is human beings memetically reduced to
    > the status of programmed berserkers and faith-based missiles.

    << This can count for anti- democratic movements as well for funda- mentalistic religious ones ! Extremists are everywhere, even in the finest democracies of the world. Fighting for the right of others to be free seen as one idealistic trait of your country is from my POV the same as the ground where Muslim extremists work on...

    > It's not too warm in NW Florida, either (we have has freezes recently).
    Hm, never thought you have cold winters in Florida ! I have much to learn about the weather....

    Many regards though,


    =============================================================== This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing) see:

    This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Mon 09 Dec 2002 - 20:17:26 GMT