Date: Thu 05 Dec 2002 - 20:29:39 GMT
> > Kenneth,
> > > > Where is your trust !? Your commitment !? You place upon
> > > > yourself
> > a hard burden you can 't no longer bear. Everywhere you see enemies
> > and possible threats, that's no life man !
> > Joe,
> > > We are bearing not only our own burdens, but yours as well, which
> > > we would not feel compelled to do if you would just bear them
> > > yourself. And the threat is to the entire Dar al Harb, that is,
> > > any government not submitting its entire populace to shari'a law.
> > > You will realize that
> > > enough through the actions of Radical Islamofascists; it has been
> > > already widely advertized through their words.
> > But that ain 't something I asked you to do ! You think you are in
> > the
> > place to do it out of yourself, be my guest !
Maybe not you personally, but many governments, both publicly and privately,, have petitioned the US for its assistance in these matters - and more often than not, it has been provided.
> > Kaplan mentioned this in the essay you provided us, I understand
> > that the US uses its military power to settle conflicts if their own
> > interests are
> > stake or if a country asks for it, but you never gonna hear me say
> > that
> > US
> > does this out of a kind of idealism... that is altruistic behavior
> > and
> > ain 't
> > gonna work on such a massive scale ! I mentioned this before, I
> > believe,
> > this is so, than it is something thicker than your blood, than I
> > would/ could understand it, but not out the notion of " we have the
> > power lets use it "
> > The US never allowed Russia to " use its power ", you always
> > obstructed it where you could and IMO still does, that ain 't
> > idealism, that is enforce- ment, these are blind ideological moves.
> > And by the way, Kaplan is biased, there ain 't objectivity, he is
> > walking the American walk. His point of origin in the ways he thinks
> > is
> > of a country, " and the country that must be preserved, is America "
> > he writes. If you don 't hear that within that notion the
> > preservation of the US implies that possible others countries have
> > to go, well than I don 't really undestand. I am sorry, but I always
> > thought that novels and stories about chivalry
> > out of date, but when Kaplan begins to say ( in the interview I got)
> > that
> > bases himself upon the thoughts of Machiavelli where ' virtue '
> > means ' courage ', energy, knowledge, bravery and sharpwittness or
> > in other words, manly
> > than I see again the US as Don Quichot in the Man of the la Mancha,
> > windmills.
The US is not just a country, it is an idea. It was created on paper before it was instituted in reality. It cannot just propose the ideals of egalitarianism, basic human rights, participatory democracy and church-state separation for its own citizens and not also consider them to be beneficial to all the citizens of the world. That is simply a matter of ethics concerning fallow human beings, a stance which democratic and egalitarian Europe solidly agrees.
> > Kenneth
> > > > Again Joe, I detect something of a disapproval for European ways
> > > > of handling things, again you seem to indicate you 're right and
> > > > we 're wrong ! I don 't know who said this but eventually this
> > > > will tear us apart, the isolation where the US holds itself in,
> > > > will fall down on itself.
> > Joe,
> > > Actually, that is because you are as wrong to ignore or dismiss
> > > this threat as Chamberlain was to ignore another less religious
> > > fascist
> > > 60+ years ago. Your very lack of resolve in demanding that all
> > > citizens of a country respect its laws, including those that
> > > demand tolerance for others, is perceived by such people as a
> > > weakness to be exploited, and exploit it they will.
> > If this is so, than it can means only two things, in Europe we're
> > all memetical blind and I wonder how that came about_ in what way
> > we' re rocked to sleep
> > !?
> > On the other hand than ' knows ' the US something more, something we
> > singly ignore_ and in the same token I wonder !
> > In a sense, what America does can be again that religious fact where
> > I
> > har-
> > ping about, the notion that the US wants to clear up what can be
> > defined
> > the
> > " irrationality of man "_ again, the notion of the Lamarckian
> > creation is not far away.... And, Kaplan writes, " in politics we
> > deal with people who lack rationality ".
What is being dealt with are Radical Muslims who have substituted Islamic dogma for rationality, and who insist upon forcing the selfsame substitution upon all the peoples of the world. That is simply unacceptable to those of us who value our physical and intellectual freedom.
> > Joe,
> > > I have given a good deal of thought to Europe's reluctance to face
> > > up to their own problems, and instead dump them in the US's lap by
> > > default, all the while dissing, downing and deploring the US while
> > > the US is busy dealing with those very problems for a Europe
> > > reticent about taking care of what by all rights should be their
> > > own business. It is a sad situation, and Europe needs to take
> > > responsibility for themselves more and criticize the US less when
> > > it feels obligated, by it's sense of responsibility for an ally,
> > > Europe, that continuously demonstrates a
> > > of will to recognize and deal with its own problems, to deal with
> > > them
> > > it. If you won't or can't deal with your own problems, and they
> > > nevertheless must be dealt with for the global good, it would be
> > > nice
> > > to be raked over the coals for our blood-and-treasure-expensive
> > > loyalty, magnanimity, largesse and noblesse oblige.
> > Again why is it than so important to the US to stick around !?
> > I don 't believe that it is out the kind of idealism that Kaplan
> > talks
> > !
> > There has to be a catch somewhere, if not self- interest, what can
> > it be
> > Kaplan writes in that regard, " By the way, democracies can become
> > dictotarial too. The possibility to move armed forces around the
> > globe scoops out American politics. "
> > What it means IMO is that the US always will return to its military
> > power, necessary or not, you got it, you will use, even when the
> > force don 't stand in proportion to what really happened. There ain
> > 't room for de- mocratic discours something where the US is so proud
> > of... strange, again
The US would have a hard time becoming a dictatorship with free elections and a constitutional two term limit for US presidents in place. These matters have been discussed in the US incessantly since the 9/11 attack; most of the US citizenry, as shown by public opinion pools and the recent mid-term elections, strongly support the measures that the Bush administration has taken to thwart this dire threat to everyone's freedoms.
> > > >
> > Kenneth
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This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
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