Date: Thu 05 Dec 2002 - 20:17:51 GMT
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Van oost Kenneth" <firstname.lastname@example.org>
> To: "memetics" <email@example.com>
> Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2002 5:39 PM
> Subject: Re: Why Europe is so Contrary
> > Kenneth,
> > > > Here I hear thru ' what I dislike most, the voice of thinking in
> > > > superior levels ! Those tendencies are part of my culture, of my
> > > > history, of my being and for one I am proud of them ! Yes, I am
> > > > ! Let me explain, before one says again I talk crap, In Europe
> > > > we have a Spanish solution, a German proposition, a French
> > > > opposition to one others its proposal_ all of which are biased
> > > > within the country its own psychological, social, cultural,...
> > > > tradition, all of which with their own specific traits, tricks
> > > > and habits. It makes us what we are!
> > Joe,
> > > It also means that Europe is too busy occupied with internecine
> > > disagreements to be able to cooperate in the face of common
> > > threats and dangers (and thus has depended upon the US to deal
> > > with them for it). A system cannot protect and preserve its
> > > people or their way of
> > > if it is impotent to guard them against either external or
> > > internal hazards. We saw all too fully the german 'Final
> > > Solution' imposed upon the rest of Europe, and with Italy's help.
> > I am personal all for a strong Europe, if not in words than in deeds
> > and
> > respect the unification of Europe along its economical axes is maybe
> > a
> > thing but it doesn 't bring the peoples all together. Cultural and
> > all we are to damned different to live as one single nation. As for
> > the German bit, the rest of Europe made a mess about the legacy of
> > WWI, in a sense Germany had no other option than to go to war again,
> > but that is all history.
> > I am not that concerned about the ways Europe settles its conflicts,
> > I am more concerned about the fact that Americans had a view that is
> > IMO what blurded. After 9/ 11 it struck me to see that for instance
> > CNN always blew high of the US tower, but never went deeper. It was
> > a show, a scam !
3000 dead give poignant mute testimony that the WTC atrocity was no scam.
> Now, Bush allowed, under pressure no doubt, that a
> > committy will inves- tigate the role of its own policy and the role
> > of the CIA. Hannad Arendt called this ' redraw of information ' and
> > that is what
> > ned over the last decades in the US, specific about the US foreign
> > policy. In such ways there is a " conscience- narrowing ", it
> > becomes them against us, because the role of the " we " is never
> > shown to the public_ it
> > a Cold War.
The investigation will, quite properly, focus on how it happened that the various clue-dots were not connected prior to the 9/11 attack, with an eye to improving inter-intelligence communication so that such a lapse has a smaller chance of being repeated.
> > Why should the US, like Kaplan wrote, like Roosevelt intented, even
> > still border to ' protect ' Europe if there isn 't any gain in such
> > an attempt
> > Europe, seen from US eyes was just there as a buffer to the Sovjet
> > Union_ in a way of being an economical outlet for its products.
> > IIRC, the US came in WWI just out of economical reasons, the German
> > U- boats sank to much of its ships, conveying towards Europe with
> > food and weapons. There is much to say about the political
> > truth..... And why did the US order to set foot in Normandia, the US
> > was attacked by Japan at Pearl Harbor, there was no given reason to
> > go that far as
> > ders and the Rhine, if not " self- interest "....
Actually, it was not only in the US's economic self-interest to end the global economic disruption that the war caused, but also in its security interest to end the war on the side of participatory democracy asnd stabilize the region. It was also in Europ'e interest for the US to do so.
> > Joe,
> > > Actually, when a state has an idea that is passed into law via
> > > or public referendum and it is both good and works, the other
> > > states sit up and take notice and movements begin in them to do
> > > the same, and the federal government more often than not follows.
> > > This is a strength of the US system; individual states are
> > > laboratories for ideas. I see
> > this
> > > happening to a certain degree in your new EU, also. But the US
> > > has had the advantage of a common language and history (although
> > > the former is weakening herewith the influx of many Spanish
> > > speakers), just as it is strengthening in Europe with the
> > > increasing ubiquity of the English language there.
> > That is a kind of mystery to me though, how will the US (re)act upon
> > that fact !? I understand that now already 60 % of Florida is of
> > Spanish- speaking origin, how will this reflect in political power
> > !?
The Cuban anti-Castro bloc does indeed have clout in South Florida; I live in NW Florida, and one of my next-door neighbors is black, and a Hispanic family lives across the street. We get along quite well, and all speak English.
> How is this translated in economical power !?
As a trend, blacks and Hispanics are poorer than caucasians, who are poorer than Asians and Jews, but on an individual basis, there are richer and poorer members of all these groups in the US.
> Does they have the
> > same rights !?
As much as a constitutional democracy dedicated to the equality of its citizens under the law has been able to practicably guarantee.
> How high are the criminal figures !? Comparable to
> > those of the Black community !?
Although there is statistically more crime committed per capita by blacks and Hispanics, this is a reflection of economics rather than ethnicity. Once the comparison is normalized by personal income, the rates are about the same, with poor whites committing about the same percentage per capita as the poor of other groups.
> I forsee there a great deal of
> > trouble arising in your midst, if the US government won 't deal with
> > that a kind of situation. Or is that one/ the reason why the US
> > intervenes so happily abroad, to elude its people from what is
> > really happening internal !? After all, a good president is often
> > seen as one who has a strong foreign policy.... strange !!
The US has a responsibility and obligation, as the world's one remaining superpower, to assist in stabilizing the global situation. This position is urged upon the US by the selfsame people who complain about it, and it is acknowledged by most US citizens as a necessity thrust upon it by its pre-eminent position in the world.
> > France is a country to watch with some
> > > trepidation, though; not since Moorish Spain has a country
> > > contained such a substantial Muslim minority, and it has only been
> > > the degree of Francophile chauvinism there that has kept them on
> > > course (for instance, their laws against Muslim militants are
> > > stricter than, for instance, Britain's).
> > Hm, another explanation can be given though !
> > France has as many Muslims in is midst than Britain has Hindus, those
> > are two complete different peoples. The Muslim minority is shacked
> > up in ' les faubourgs ', Sovjet style appartment blocks, no green,
> > no
> > tives, no future_ they are the decendents of people expelled from
> > Algeria, no real French citizens, not really Algerians either...a
> > stricter enforcement is needed to control ciminality and abuse...
> > comparable to what I wrote above about Florida and the Black
> > community...
Actually, the South is quite comfortably integrated, and has assimilated the end of Jim crow and the Martin Luther king led civil rights revolution well, as the Southwest has done with Hispanics. We have been living compatibly together for quite some time now. The most segregated parts of the US are its northern urban metropolises. Of course, the most seamlessly integrated nation on earth is Brazil.
> On the other hand, Hindus from India and Pakistan had,
> > in most cases, family, relatives and friends who made the trip to
> > England ealier on. Both cases are IMO not comparable at all... Like
> > in Germany, where an estimated 4 million Turks live. Those are like
> > the Hindus in England, the ' problem- people ' so to speak are the
> > Easies...
> > Kenneth,
> > > > The Marroccans you talked about make up 60 % of the population
> > > > in that kind of neighbourhood where the riots began. I
> > > > understand their frustration, no work, no money and eons of time
> > > > on their hands, no future, no real perspective and than one gets
> > > > shot by a psychogical nutcase. They see it, and the Maroccans
> > > > are keen on that, as a racistic attack and induced by the words
> > > > of AEL they went to the streets. But they are Muslims and very
> > > > radical indeed, the words pronounced in the mosque don 't leave
> > > > any doubt, but on the horizon there were also words of
> > > > reconciliation, dialogue and friendship. I base my verdict on
> > > > those.
> > Joe,
> > > It self-servingly plays into the Rasical Islamists' hands for them
> > > to portray that murder as racist, when it seems to have been the
> > > work of a looney involved in a neighborhood dispute. They desire
> > > the double standard right to kill anyone they proclaim as having
> > > slandered Islam, while promising bloody and self-righteous riots
> > > if any one else should dare to do the same to one of their Ummah,
> > > whether the motivation is religious, ethnic, or neither. In other
> > > words, y'all have a real
> > on
> > > your hands.
> > Hm, not with the Turks, Algerians and others, but solely with the
> > Marroccans! Not only in Antwerp but also in Brussels and elsewhere
> > those are the most violent bunch of immigrants we have. I said this
> > before on this list, those are comparable to what happened to the
> > Algerians in France with the difference the Marroccans came here out
> > of economical reasons but never found there ways, like the Italians
> > did in
> > mines for instance.
> > There is also a kind of obscure mentality hidden in the Marroccan, a
> > kind of backlach, a defense mechanism as it were, of saying that any
> > ' attack ' is out of racistic reasons_ when a young guy of 18 is
> > shot death by the police while trying to escape a control, driving
> > in a stolen car with a weapon on his knees_ if than this is a
> > racistic attack, well I don 't
> > than there must be something wrong with their estimation of things,
> > won 't it !? I tried to explain this once to someone involved in
> > such problematic, but the thing that it could be genetic, memetic
> > related made him run away....
Radical Muslims, as a rule, do not wish to join the civilizations to which they emigrate; they instead demand, sometimes violently, to remake these civilizations in their own Dar el Islam Ummah image.
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