Re: Why Europe is so Contrary

From: Van oost Kenneth (
Date: Sun 01 Dec 2002 - 16:39:00 GMT

  • Next message: Jon Gilbert: "Re: Joe"

    > > Here I hear thru ' what I dislike most, the voice of thinking in
    > > superior levels ! Those tendencies are part of my culture, of my
    > > history, of my being and for one I am proud of them ! Yes, I am ! Let
    > > me explain, before one says again I talk crap, In Europe we have a
    > > Spanish solution, a German proposition, a French opposition to one
    > > others its proposal_ all of which are biased within the country its
    > > own psychological, social, cultural,... tradition, all of which with
    > > their own specific traits, tricks and habits. It makes us what we are!
    > It also means that Europe is too busy occupied with internecine
    > disagreements to be able to cooperate in the face of common threats
    > and dangers (and thus has depended upon the US to deal with them for
    > it). A system cannot protect and preserve its people or their way of life
    > if it is impotent to guard them against either external or internal
    > hazards. We saw all too fully the german 'Final Solution' imposed upon
    > the rest of Europe, and with Italy's help.

    I am personal all for a strong Europe, if not in words than in deeds and in respect the unification of Europe along its economical axes is maybe a good thing but it doesn 't bring the peoples all together. Cultural and all we are to damned different to live as one single nation. As for the German bit, the rest of Europe made a mess about the legacy of WWI, in a sense Germany had no other option than to go to war again, but that is all history.

    I am not that concerned about the ways Europe settles its conflicts, I am more concerned about the fact that Americans had a view that is IMO what blurded. After 9/ 11 it struck me to see that for instance CNN always blew high of the US tower, but never went deeper. It was a show, a scam ! Now, Bush allowed, under pressure no doubt, that a committy will inves- tigate the role of its own policy and the role of the CIA. Hannad Arendt called this ' redraw of information ' and that is what happe- ned over the last decades in the US, specific about the US foreign policy. In such ways there is a " conscience- narrowing ", it becomes them against us, because the role of the " we " is never shown to the public_ it becomes a Cold War.

    Why should the US, like Kaplan wrote, like Roosevelt intented, even still border to ' protect ' Europe if there isn 't any gain in such an attempt !? Europe, seen from US eyes was just there as a buffer to the Sovjet Union_ in a way of being an economical outlet for its products. IIRC, the US came in WWI just out of economical reasons, the German U- boats sank to much of its ships, conveying towards Europe with food and weapons. There is much to say about the political truth..... And why did the US order to set foot in Normandia, the US was attacked by Japan at Pearl Harbor, there was no given reason to go that far as Flan- ders and the Rhine, if not " self- interest "....

    > Actually, when a state has an idea that is passed into law via legislation
    > or public referendum and it is both good and works, the other states sit
    > up and take notice and movements begin in them to do the same, and
    > the federal government more often than not follows. This is a strength
    > of the US system; individual states are laboratories for ideas. I see
    > happening to a certain degree in your new EU, also. But the US has
    > had the advantage of a common language and history (although the
    > former is weakening herewith the influx of many Spanish speakers), just
    > as it is strengthening in Europe with the increasing ubiquity of the
    > English language there.

    That is a kind of mistery to me though, how will the US (re)act upon that fact !? I understand that now already 60 % of Florida is of Spanish- speaking origin, how will this reflect in political power !? How is this translated in economical power !? Does they have the same rights !? How high are the criminal figures !? Comparable to those of the Black community !? I forsee there a great deal of trouble arising in your mids, if the US government won 't deal with that a kind of situation. Or is that one/ the reason why the US intervenes so happily abroad, to elude its people from what is really happening internal !? After all, a good president is often seen as one who has a strong foreign policy.... strange !!

    France is a country to watch with some
    > trepidation, though; not since Moorish Spain has a country contained
    > such a substantial Muslim minority, and it has only been the degree of
    > Francophile chauvinism there that has kept them on course (for
    > instance, their laws against Muslim militants are stricter than, for
    > instance, Britain's).

    Hm, another explanation can be given though ! France has as many Muslims in is mids than Britain has Hindus, those are two complete different peoples. The Muslim minority is shacked up in ' les faubourgs ', Sovjet style appartment blocks, no green, no perspec- tives, no future_ they are the decendents of people expelled from Algeria, no real French citizens, not really Algerians either...a stricter enforcement is needed to control ciminality and abuse... comparable to what I wrote above about Florida and the Black community... On the other hand, Hindus from India and Pakistan had, in most cases, family, relatives and friends who made the trip to England ealier on. Both cases are IMO not comparable at all... Like in Germany, where an estimated 4 million Turks live. Those are like the Hindus in England, the ' problem- people ' so to speak are the Easies...

    > > The Marroccans you talked about make up 60 % of the population
    > > in that kind of neighbourhood where the riots began.
    > > I understand their frustration, no work, no money and eons of time on
    > > their hands, no future, no real perspective and than one gets shot by
    > > a psychogical nutcase. They see it, and the Maroccans are keen on
    > > that, as a racistic attack and induced by the words of AEL they went
    > > to the streets. But they are Muslims and very radical indeed, the
    > > words pronounced in the mosque don 't leave any doubt, but on the
    > > horizon there were also words of reconciliation, dialogue and
    > > friendship. I base my verdict on those.
    > It self-servingly plays into the Rasical Islamists' hands for them to
    > portray that murder as racist, when it seems to have been the work of a
    > looney involved in a neighborhood dispute. They desire the double
    > standard right to kill anyone they proclaim as having slandered Islam,
    > while promising bloody and self-righteous riots if any one else should
    > dare to do the same to one of their Ummah, whether the motivation is
    > religious, ethnic, or neither. In other words, y'all have a real problem
    > your hands.

    Hm, not with the Turks, Algerians and others, but solely with the Marroccans! Not only in Antwerp but also in Brussels and elsewhere those are the most violent bunch of immigrants we have. I said this before on this list, those are comparable to what happened to the Algerians in France with the difference the Marroccans came here out of economical reasons but never found there ways, like the Italians did in our mines for instance.

    There is also a kind of obscure mentality hidden in the Marroccan, a kind of backlach, a defense mechanism as it were, of saying that any ' attack ' is out of racistic reasons_ when a young guy of 18 is shot death by the police while trying to escape a control, driving in a stolen car with a weapon on his knees_ if than this is a racistic attack, well I don 't know, than there must be something wrong with their estimation of things, won 't it !? I tried to explain this once to someone involved in such problematic, but the thing that it could be genetic, memetic related made him run away....

    > > Where is your trust !? Your commitment !? You place upon yourself
     a hard burden you can 't no longer bear. Everywhere you see enemies and
     possible threats, that's no life man ! Joe,
    > We are bearing not only our own burdens, but yours as well, which we
    > would not feel compelled to do if you would just bear them yourself.
    > And the threat is to the entire Dar al Harb, that is, any government not
    > submitting its entire populace to shari'a law. You will realize that soon
    > enough through the actions of Radical Islamofascists; it has been
    > already widely advetized through their words.

    But that ain 't something I asked you to do ! You think you are in the right place to do it out of yourself, be my guest ! Kaplan mentioned this in the essay you provided us, I understand that the US uses its military power to settle conflicts if their own interests are at stake or if a country asks for it, but you never gonna hear me say that the US does this out of a kind of idealism... that is altruistic behavior and that ain 't gonna work on such a massive scale ! I mentioned this before, I believe, if this is so, than it is something thicker than your blood, than I would/ could understand it, but not out the notion of " we have the power lets use it " ! The US never allowed Russia to " use its power ", you always obstructed it where you could and IMO still does, that ain 't idealism, that is enforce- ment, these are blind ideological moves.

    And by the way, Kaplan is biased, there ain 't objectivity, he is walking the American walk. His point of origin in the ways he thinks is selfpreservation of a country, " and the country that must be preserved, is America " he writes. If you don 't hear that within that notion the preservation of the US implies that possible others countries have to go, well than I don 't really undestand. I am sorry, but I always thought that novels and stories about chivalry were out of date, but when Kaplan begins to say ( in the interview I got) that he bases himself upon the thoughts of Machiavelli where ' virtue ' means ' courage ', energy, knowledge, bravery and sharpwittness or in other words, manly power, than I see again the US as Don Quichot in the Man of the la Mancha, fighting windmills.

    > > Again Joe, I detect something of a disapproval for European ways of
    > > handling things, again you seem to indicate you 're right and we 're
    > > wrong ! I don 't know who said this but eventually this will tear us
    > > apart, the isolation where the US holds itself in, will fall down on
    > > itself.
    > Actually, that is because you are as wrong to ignore or dismiss this
    > threat as Chamberlain was to ignore another less religious fascist threat
    > 60+ years ago. Your very lack of resolve in demanding that all citizens
    > of a country respect its laws, including those that demand tolerance for
    > others, is perceived by such people as a weakness to be exploited, and
    > exploit it they will.

    If this is so, than it can means only two things, in Europe we're all memetical blind and I wonder how that came about_ in what way we' re rocked to sleep
    !? On the other hand than ' knows ' the US something more, something we suppo- singly ignore_ and in the same token I wonder ! In a sense, what America does can be again that religious fact where I keep har- ping about, the notion that the US wants to clear up what can be defined as the
    " irrationality of man "_ again, the notion of the Lamarckian creation is not far away.... And, Kaplan writes, " in politics we deal with people who lack rationality

    > I have given a good deal of thought to Europe's reluctance to face up to
    > their own problems, and instead dump them in the US's lap by default,
    > all the while dissing, downing and deploring the US while the US is
    > busy dealing with those very problems for a Europe reticent about
    > taking care of what by all rights should be their own business. It is a
    > sad situation, and Europe needs to take responsibility for themselves
    > more and criticize the US less when it feels obligated, by it's sense of
    > responsibility for an ally, Europe, that continuously demonstrates a lack
    > of will to recognize and deal with its own problems, to deal with them for
    > it. If you won't or can't deal with your own problems, and they
    > nevertheless must be dealt with for the global good, it would be nice not
    > to be raked over the coals for our blood-and-treasure-expensive loyalty,
    > magnanimity, largesse and noblesse oblige.

    Again why is it than so important to the US to stick around !? I don 't believe that it is out the kind of idealism that Kaplan talks about
    ! There has to be a catch somewhere, if not self- interest, what can it be !? Kaplan writes in that regard, " By the way, democracies can become dictotarial too. The possibility to move armed forces around the globe scoops out American politics. "

    What it means IMO is that the US always will return to its military power, necessary or not, you got it, you will use, even when the force don
    't stand in proportion to what really happened. There ain 't room for de- mocratic discours something where the US is so proud of... strange, again !
    > >

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