Re: Joe

From: Dace (
Date: Sun 01 Dec 2002 - 18:09:48 GMT

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    > Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 12:26:13 -0800
    > From: Jon Gilbert <>
    > >Tsk, tsk, Joe. I can see that you haven't read any of my postings on the
    > >Israeli-Palestinian dispute during the last year plus....
    > >
    > >Anti-American? How little you understand! And how little you know!
    > >
    > >People on the list do tend to need to counter your diatribes by reminding
    > >(or trying to remind you) of the flip side to your arguments, so it is
    > >true that we end up presenting a litany of facts and concepts that try to
    > >correct the imbalance we perceive in your views. But we have never had a
    > >real discussion with you about the US and its foreign policy, Muslims,
    > >Arabs, Jews, Israel or Palestine, because instead of a real discussion,
    > >get in to futile efforts to break through your prejudices and anger, as
    > >do to pound your views into us.
    > >
    > >I am told that you have been kicked off another list (CoV), and warned on
    > >least one other, not because of the substance of your views but because
    > >the way you behave on the list. I do find that it makes true discussion
    > >quite difficult and wastes a huge amount of time of people who otherwise
    > >have a lot to offer each other and learn from each other.
    > >
    > >There are a lot of interesting things that we should be discussing, and
    > >need to find a way to do it without your impeding the process.
    > >
    > >My hope, Joe, is that we can let this calm down, and that you can
    > >the effect you have on the list's interactions, and find some way to
    > >more effective for both yourself and the rest of us on this list.
    > Hate to say this Larry but you seem to be the one that has the
    > problem here, not Joe, whose only issue seems to be that he has too
    > much time on his hands and thus posts an extraordinary amount of
    > stuff. It's not a crime to be opinionated or to argue vehemently,
    > which is what he seems to do. But I do take issue with the fact that
    > you only engage in ad hominem attacks and avoid any direct engagement
    > of the points he makes. All it does is make you look bad, not him.

    How long have you been on this list, Jon? As I wrote last week, Lawrence is merely articulating what most of us who've been here awhile know perfectly well. Nothing ad hominem to it-- which is Joe's specialty-- just constructive criticism. Lawry's only error is to hope that Joe can reform in some way and become a responsible member of the list. Not gonna happen. Joe is the Darth Vader of the memetics list. The psychiatric term for his condition is antisocial personality disorder. Yes, there's a human being somewhere in there, and sometimes individuals with this condition do take off the helmet, so to speak, but it's very rare. Most sociopaths are stuck for life at the emotional maturity of a 6-year old, and Joe does not appear to be an exception. He's incapable of recognizing when he's wrong and often believes he's scored some kind of great rhetorical victory when all he's done is to repeat for the 50th time his unreflective views. It's a problem of the ego. "I'm right because I'm me." The reason he can't recognize Israel's slow-motion genocide against the Palestinian people is that he
    *identifies* with Israel. It's the pathological ego that makes people vulnerable to pathological memes, in this case the "Palestinians are evil terrorists" meme.

    As Lawrence wrote, Joe is an interesting case study. Indeed, he is highly useful to a memetics list. All pathological memes are functions of pathological egos, whether those egos exist at the level of the individual, as with Joe, or at the collective level, as with the United States or Israel.

    Many individuals diagnosable with a personality disorder exert a degree of
    "charm." The dark side certainly has an allure. It's always dangerous to expose a personality disorder, as people tend to side with the disturbed individual against those who would "attack" him. Unfortunately, you've demonstrated this tendency all too well.


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