Re: Why Europe is so Contrary

Date: Sun 01 Dec 2002 - 01:28:58 GMT

  • Next message: Grant Callaghan: "Culture and Biology Inseperable"

    > But this can count also for Grant and Jon !
    > ----- Original Message -----
    > From: <>
    > To: <>
    > Kenneth,
    > > > Yes I can see your point, though, but from my POV that is maybe
    > > > the fact I dislike the most in the American/ Usasian attitude,
    > > > that there ain 't ' individuality ' in it. You seem to think all
    > > > quite the same, one country, one nation, one voice !
    > Joe,
    > > It becomes more and more obvious that you have never been here.
    > No, you' re right, my personal taste goes out towards Eastern- Europe,
    > Russia and China, but would that matter !? Do you know as much about
    > Europe if you should have lived here or I for a few years in the US !?
    > You would know a little, but you never would known the bone though !
    I myself have never been to Europe, but I do know what Europeans tell me of their opinions on things. I also know that the ex-pat Brits Andrew Sullivan ans Christopher Hitchens are just as critical of these eurotendencies as I am, if not more.
    > Kenneth
    > > > IMO, what you described in above can be seen as a ' faith ', no
    > > > doubt a positive one from your side of the channel when you look
    > > > at it, but from my side of the great pond I see a country that is
    > > > willing to impose its " democratic " values and its compulsary
    > > > memes upon the rest of the world. If you don 't realize that for
    > > > others that is unacceptable you ' re in the wrong country.
    > Joe,
    > > The whole idea behind democracy is that it is the END of imposition.
    > > There can be no such thing as a democratic dictator. Once a country
    > > becomes democratic, its citizenry gets to decide the course of their
    > > country through the electoral selection of its leaders, rather than
    > > having those leaders dictate the direction of the country to them.
    > If the US wins its war against Iraq and sets up a democratic movement,
    > than it IMO " imposing " a political system upon a people which has no
    > sense of what democracy is all about ! Robert Kaplan writes, " Iraq is
    > not familar with the democratic tradition. To often leads such '
    > imposing ' to more violence and chaos. It would be better that the
    > regime of Saddam is followed up by a seculair dictatorship under which
    > regime the economy will be rebuilt and institutions will be formed
    > which in turn will lay down the fundaments for real democracy. "
    That may indeed happen, following the model of Japan and Germany, post-WW II. A transitional form placed in position for the purpose of educating a heretofore powerless people in how to responsibly use a democratic system might indeed be more practicable. I do not want one strongman replaced by another, however, and I sincerely doubt if the Iraqis do, either.
    > So, in a sense Joe, yes there can a democratic dictator !
    > And when will Iraq be ' ready ' for the real democracy !? Will the
    > dictator move away when it does !? And who or what will it be !? The
    > UN !?
    No, the Iraqis would have to be self-governing; otherwise, one is speaking not of a democracy, but of a province or protectorate (kinda like India was under the Brits).
    > Kenneth,
    > > > Oh I believe that is part of the American tradition and part of
    > > > the ways by which America was founded, but it seems fair to say if
    > > > you see the European cultural/ social/ political diversity as the
    > > > major point why we don 't engage ourselves in a stupid war, than
    > > > you make me upset. Than is the ways by which Americans, like you
    > > > and Joe talk to us the Europeans a question of " culture " ! If
    > > > you say that the diversity, like Joe seems to indicate, is a flaw
    > > > to the reason why we don 't go to war with Iraq, than you attack
    > > > our/ my way of life... and I am not a Radical Muslim, far from it
    > > > !
    > Joe,
    > > Actually, a war to disarm a bloodthirsty dictator inhabiting
    > > Europe's vulnerable southeastern underbelly who would not agree to
    > > disarm himself would not be stupid, but would be of great benefit to
    > > both the US and Europe. Just as it was a great benefit to Europe
    > > for the US to deal with Serbia's Milosevic - and y'all bitched and
    > > moaned about that one, too, even though it saved your bacon.
    > True, very true oh damned so true !
    > Don 't you think I am ashamed of what happened, of that Europe can 't
    > clean up its mess in its own backyard !? I am ! But my take on this
    > remains the notion that we, or you still sees things in a black and
    > white memetic perspective, it remains at any cost an opposition of
    > views. Are we, you, the US, Europe in that position that you can
    > order, that you are willing, are you of such irrerproachable behavior
    > that you can slap Saddam in the face !? Are we !? No, we ain 't ! If
    > we think we are, we place ourselves above the others, than we think
    > we' re superior, we think we have superior values, norms and universal
    > rights. Whatever we do, still there will be people who' ll find
    > themselves repressed and so will get reasons to get even. And no,
    > Grant, I don 't compare the clashes in Ireland, or the ETA, or the
    > RAF, or the Red Brigades with what is called Radical Muslims, they are
    > of another planet. The latter is religion and terority and the others
    > want to induce communism and other fights for their freedom. Never
    > thought Muslims would do the same !?
    Actually, by any objective standards, a participatory democracy IS better than a dictatorship that mass gasses its own people - at least for those people. And its values and norms could not help but be superior to Saddam's, just as the Iraqi people's then present rights would have to be better for them than the absence of rights they suffer under Saddam. One cannot be absolutist about one's relativism; some things are indeed better than others. The same logic might assert that pol Pot was as good for cambodia as Silhanouk, or that Hitler and Stalin and Idi Amin Dada were as good for their countries as those who replaced them.
    > Kenneth,
    > > > It is this kind of attitude, this kind of reasoning, the lack of
    > > > patriotism that you see as a slur on the European vail, that we/ I
    > > > dislike ! It is just in the diversity of our, yes, bloody cultures
    > > > we find peace and ease of mind, and yes, the same diversity holds
    > > > us back to become a true European nation, but at least we hold
    > > > back the praises of wherein patriotism and sacrifice of
    > > > authoritatives are displayed.... That kind of conservatism is
    > > > since long replaced by the Enlightment and Modernism and even
    > > > Post- Modernism.
    > Joe,
    > > Europe seems to not lack effluvient praises for the appeasement of
    > > vicious dictators and virulent ideologies. At least that has been
    > > its unfortunate history - and unfortunate for the US, too, for we
    > > have spent much blood and treasure saving you from your own sick,
    > > twisted and demented tendencies.
    > You see, Joe, I don 't like the tone of this !
    If the swastika fits...
    > Here I hear thru ' what I dislike most, the voice of thinking in
    > superior levels ! Those tendencies are part of my culture, of my
    > history, of my being and for one I am proud of them ! Yes, I am ! Let
    > me explain, before one says again I talk crap, In Europe we have a
    > Spanish solution, a German proposition, a French opposition to one
    > others its proposal_ all of which are biased within the country its
    > own psychological, social, cultural,... tradition, all of which with
    > their own specific traits, tricks and habits. It makes us what we are!
    It also means that Europe is too busy occupied with internecine disagreements to be able to cooperate in the face of common threats and dangers (and thus has depended upon the US to deal with them for it). A system cannot protect and preserve its people or their way of life if it is impotent to guard them against either external or internal hazards. We saw all too fully the german 'Final Solution' imposed upon the rest of Europe, and with Italy's help.
    > Does, in the same context count the voice in the process of decision-
    > making of Kentucky, of Alabama in equal terms !? No, IMO because the
    > bias is the same, the American constitution. Thus, the ' individuality
    > ' of each European country has its purpose ! Does the representatives
    > of the Kentukians, of the Ohiodians, of the Detroitarians carry as
    > much weight as the voice of those who repre- sesent the German people
    > in the European process of decision- making !? I don 't think so !
    > Europeans countries can contribute something specific to the whole of
    > Europe, and IMO Americian States lacks that !
    Actually, when a state has an idea that is passed into law via legislation or public referendum and it is both good and works, the other states sit up and take notice and movements begin in them to do the same, and the federal government more often than not follows. This is a strength of the US system; individual states are laboratories for ideas. I see this happening to a certain degree in your new EU, also. But the US has had the advantage of a common language and history (although the former is weakening herewith the influx of many Spanish speakers), just as it is strengthening in Europe with the increasing ubiquity of the English language there. France is a country to watch with some trepidation, though; not since Moorish Spain has a country contained such a substantial Muslim minority, and it has only been the degree of Francophile chauvinism there that has kept them on course (for instance, their laws against Muslim militants are stricter than, for instance, Britain's).
    > Joe,
    > > That's Morroccan. and you have the benefit of being a tiny country
    > > that gets a free ride, so it's in bad taste to criticize the car
    > > that picked
    > you up
    > > off the bloody street and is transporting safely you into the
    > > twenty-first century.
    > Please, don 't patronize me ! I am not a child, willing to fall on my
    > knees and praise the American Lord ! But that tiny country holds
    > within its borders the fourth wealthiest region of the world_ Flanders
    > ! All thanks to you,I suppose !? Please Joe, you are talking here
    > about my heritage, my culture, my history ! The contrast between the
    > US and Europe is defined along memetic ways, lets explore some of
    > those, will we !?
    Yeah, the US and Britain suffered and bled on Flanders Field. We share a common history there, forged in the blood and death of a common fight for freedom.
    > The Marroccans you talked about make up 60 % of the population
    > in that kind of neighbourhood where the riots began.
    > I understand their frustration, no work, no money and eons of time on
    > their hands, no future, no real perspective and than one gets shot by
    > a psychogical nutcase. They see it, and the Maroccans are keen on
    > that, as a racistic attack and induced by the words of AEL they went
    > to the streets. But they are Muslims and very radical indeed, the
    > words pronounced in the mosque don 't leave any doubt, but on the
    > horizon there were also words of reconciliation, dialogue and
    > friendship. I base my verdict on those.
    It self-servingly plays into the Rasical Islamists' hands for them to portray that murder as racist, when it seems to have been the work of a looney involved in a neighborhood dispute. They desire the double standard right to kill anyone they proclaim as having slandered Islam, while promising bloody and self-righteous riots if any one else should dare to do the same to one of their Ummah, whether the motivation is religious, ethnic, or neither. In other words, y'all have a real problem on your hands.
    > Joe,
    > > Tell that to your entrant in the Miss World pageant. And of course,
    > > you would not see the threatened annihilation of a US embassy in
    > > your country as a terrorist threat. How sad.
    > If you think that any stupid attempt to blow up an embassy is by
    > definition a terrorist act, than I think you have my pity !
    If you do NOT see an attempt by a radical Islamist group to blow up what they consider an infidel country's embassy as terror, then you have my richly deserved pity!
    > Where is
    > your trust !? Your commitment !? You place upon yourself a hard burden
    > you can 't no longer bear. Everywhere you see enemies and possible
    > threats, that's no life man !
    We are bearing not only our own burdens, but yours as well, which we would not feel compelled to do if you would just bear them yourself. And the threat is to the entire Dar al Harb, that is, any government not submitting its entire populace to shari'a law. You will realize that soon enough through the actions of Radical Islamofascists; it has been already widely advetized through their words.
    > Joe,
    > > But THEY will not leave you out of them. And when the massive
    > > terror action comes and you are crying in the streeets, you will ask
    > > yourselves, "Why didn't we listen?" But then it will be too late
    > > for the dead. It happened to us. And it will eventually happen to
    > > you. You cannot continue feeding that hungry terrorist alligator,
    > > hoping it'll die before it gets around to eating you, because your
    > > apathetic food keeps it alive, and it will devour you eventually.
    > Again Joe, I detect something of a disapproval for European ways of
    > handling things, again you seem to indicate you 're right and we 're
    > wrong ! I don 't know who said this but eventually this will tear us
    > apart, the isolation where the US holds itself in, will fall down on
    > itself.
    Actually, that is because you are as wrong to ignore or dismiss this threat as Chamberlain was to ignore another less religious fascist threat 60+ years ago. Your very lack of resolve in demanding that all citizens of a country respect its laws, including those that demand tolerance for others, is perceived by such people as a weakness to be exploited, and exploit it they will.
    > And again, these are my personal views and before you will stay its
    > all crap, let me say I find this oh so typical American, judge and
    > convict even before to consider another perspective, We have indeed a
    > major memetic problem on our hands and I would like, in the current
    > context to explore this further ! I will stay polite and won 't call
    > you names, I hope the same from you....
    I have given a good deal of thought to Europe's reluctance to face up to their own problems, and instead dump them in the US's lap by default, all the while dissing, downing and deploring the US while the US is busy dealing with those very problems for a Europe reticent about taking care of what by all rights should be their own business. It is a sad situation, and Europe needs to take responsibility for themselves more and criticize the US less when it feels obligated, by it's sense of responsibility for an ally, Europe, that continuously demonstrates a lack of will to recognize and deal with its own problems, to deal with them for it. If you won't or can't deal with your own problems, and they nevertheless must be dealt with for the global good, it would be nice not to be raked over the coals for our blood-and-treasure-expensive loyalty, magnanimity, largesse and noblesse oblige.
    > Many regards,
    > Kenneth
    > ===============================================================
    > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
    > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
    > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
    > see:

    =============================================================== This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing) see:

    This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Sun 01 Dec 2002 - 01:31:03 GMT