From: Van oost Kenneth (firstname.lastname@example.org)
Date: Sat 30 Nov 2002 - 20:14:51 GMT
But this can count also for Grant and Jon !
----- Original Message -----
> > Yes I can see your point, though, but from my POV that is maybe the
> > fact I dislike the most in the American/ Usasian attitude, that there
> > ain 't ' individuality ' in it. You seem to think all quite the same,
> > one country, one nation, one voice !
> It becomes more and more obvious that you have never been here.
No, you' re right, my personal taste goes out towards Eastern- Europe,
and China, but would that matter !? Do you know as much about Europe if you
should have lived here or I for a few years in the US !?
You would know a little, but you never would known the bone though !
> > IMO, what you described in above can be seen as a ' faith ', no doubt
> > a positive one from your side of the channel when you look at it, but
> > from my side of the great pond I see a country that is willing to
> > impose its " democratic " values and its compulsary memes upon the
> > rest of the world. If you don 't realize that for others that is
> > unacceptable you ' re in the wrong country.
> The whole idea behind democracy is that it is the END of imposition.
> There can be no such thing as a democratic dictator. Once a country
> becomes democratic, its citizenry gets to decide the course of their
> country through the electoral selection of its leaders, rather than having
> those leaders dictate the direction of the country to them.
If the US wins its war against Iraq and sets up a democratic movement,
than it IMO " imposing " a political system upon a people which has no
sense of what democracy is all about !
Robert Kaplan writes, " Iraq is not familar with the democratic tradition.
To often leads such ' imposing ' to more violence and chaos. It would be
better that the regime of Saddam is followed up by a seculair dictatorship
under which regime the economy will be rebuilt and institutions will be
formed which in turn will lay down the fundaments for real democracy. "
So, in a sense Joe, yes there can a democratic dictator !
And when will Iraq be ' ready ' for the real democracy !? Will the dictator
move away when it does !? And who or what will it be !? The UN !?
> > Oh I believe that is part of the American tradition and part of the
> > ways by which America was founded, but it seems fair to say if you see
> > the European cultural/ social/ political diversity as the major point
> > why we don 't engage ourselves in a stupid war, than you make me
> > upset. Than is the ways by which Americans, like you and Joe talk to
> > us the Europeans a question of " culture " ! If you say that the
> > diversity, like Joe seems to indicate, is a flaw to the reason why we
> > don 't go to war with Iraq, than you attack our/ my way of life... and
> > I am not a Radical Muslim, far from it !
> Actually, a war to disarm a bloodthirsty dictator inhabiting Europe's
> vulnerable southeastern underbelly who would not agree to disarm
> himself would not be stupid, but would be of great benefit to both the
> US and Europe. Just as it was a great benefit to Europe for the US to
> deal with Serbia's Milosevic - and y'all bitched and moaned about that
> one, too, even though it saved your bacon.
True, very true oh damned so true !
Don 't you think I am ashamed of what happened, of that Europe can 't
clean up its mess in its own backyard !? I am !
But my take on this remains the notion that we, or you still sees things
in a black and white memetic perspective, it remains at any cost an
opposition of views.
Are we, you, the US, Europe in that position that you can order, that
you are willing, are you of such irrerproachable behavior that you can
slap Saddam in the face !? Are we !? No, we ain 't !
If we think we are, we place ourselves above the others, than we think
we' re superior, we think we have superior values, norms and universal
rights. Whatever we do, still there will be people who' ll find themselves
repressed and so will get reasons to get even.
And no, Grant, I don 't compare the clashes in Ireland, or the ETA, or
the RAF, or the Red Brigades with what is called Radical Muslims, they
are of another planet. The latter is religion and terority and the others
want to induce communism and other fights for their freedom.
Never thought Muslims would do the same !?
> > It is this kind of attitude, this kind of reasoning, the lack of
> > patriotism that you see as a slur on the European vail, that we/ I
> > dislike ! It is just in the diversity of our, yes, bloody cultures we
> > find peace and ease of mind, and yes, the same diversity holds us back
> > to become a true European nation, but at least we hold back the
> > praises of wherein patriotism and sacrifice of authoritatives are
> > displayed.... That kind of conservatism is since long replaced by the
> > Enlightment and Modernism and even Post- Modernism.
> Europe seems to not lack effluvient praises for the appeasement of
> vicious dictators and virulent ideologies. At least that has been its
> unfortunate history - and unfortunate for the US, too, for we have spent
> much blood and treasure saving you from your own sick, twisted and
> demented tendencies.
You see, Joe, I don 't like the tone of this !
Here I hear thru ' what I dislike most, the voice of thinking in superior
Those tendencies are part of my culture, of my history, of my being and
for one I am proud of them ! Yes, I am !
Let me explain, before one says again I talk crap, In Europe we have
a Spanish solution, a German proposition, a French opposition to one
others its proposal_ all of which are biased within the country its own
psychological, social, cultural,... tradition, all of which with their own
specific traits, tricks and habits. It makes us what we are !
Does, in the same context count the voice in the process of decision-
making of Kentucky, of Alabama in equal terms !?
No, IMO because the bias is the same, the American constitution.
Thus, the ' individuality ' of each European country has its purpose !
Does the representatives of the Kentukians, of the Ohiodians, of the
Detroitarians carry as much weight as the voice of those who repre-
sesent the German people in the European process of decision- making !?
I don 't think so ! Europeans countries can contribute something specific
to the whole of Europe, and IMO Americian States lacks that !
> That's Morroccan. and you have the benefit of being a tiny country that
> gets a free ride, so it's in bad taste to criticize the car that picked
> off the bloody street and is transporting safely you into the twenty-first
Please, don 't patronize me ! I am not a child, willing to fall on my knees
and praise the American Lord ! But that tiny country holds within its
borders the fourth wealthiest region of the world_ Flanders !
All thanks to you,I suppose !?
Please Joe, you are talking here about my heritage, my culture, my
history ! The contrast between the US and Europe is defined along
memetic ways, lets explore some of those, will we !?
The Marroccans you talked about make up 60 % of the population
in that kind of neighbourhood where the riots began.
I understand their frustration, no work, no money and eons of time on
their hands, no future, no real perspective and than one gets shot by
a psychogical nutcase. They see it, and the Maroccans are keen on
that, as a racistic attack and induced by the words of AEL they went
to the streets. But they are Muslims and very radical indeed, the words
pronounced in the mosque don 't leave any doubt, but on the horizon
there were also words of reconciliation, dialogue and friendship.
I base my verdict on those.
> Tell that to your entrant in the Miss World pageant. And of course, you
> would not see the threatened annihilation of a US embassy in your
> country as a terrorist threat. How sad.
If you think that any stupid attempt to blow up an embassy is by definition
a terrorist act, than I think you have my pity !
Where is your trust !? Your commitment !?
You place upon yourself a hard burder you can 't no longer bear.
Everywhere you see enemies and possible threats, that's no life man !
> But THEY will not leave you out of them. And when the massive terror
> action comes and you are crying in the streeets, you will ask
> yourselves, "Why didn't we listen?" But then it will be too late for the
> dead. It happened to us. And it will eventually happen to you. You
> cannot continue feeding that hungry terrorist alligator, hoping it'll die
> before it gets around to eating you, because your apathetic food keeps
> it alive, and it will devour you eventually.
Again Joe, I detect something of a disapproval for European ways of
handling things, again you seem to indicate you 're right and we 're wrong !
I don 't know who said this but eventually this will tear us apart, the
where the US holds itself in, will fall down on itself.
And again, these are my personal views and before you will stay its all
let me say I find this oh so typical American, judge and convict even before
to consider another perspective,
We have indeed a major memetic problem on our hands and I would like,
in the current context to explore this further !
I will stay polite and won 't call you names, I hope the same from you....
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