RE: Islam and Europe and the Palestinians and the Left and the anti-American Lawry

From: Scott Chase (
Date: Sun 24 Nov 2002 - 17:22:53 GMT

  • Next message: Lawrence DeBivort: "RE: Toward a discussion of Israel, Palestine and memetics"

    >From: Jeremy Bradley <>
    >Subject: RE: Islam and Europe and the Palestinians and the Left and the
    >anti-American Lawry
    >Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 12:05:53 +1100
    >At 06:56 PM 23/11/02 -0500, you wrote:
    > >Lawry wrote:
    > >What about LEHI and Irgun and the events at places such as Deir Yassin?
    >There was the Stern Group as well.
    > Lawry:
    > >I haven't been able to delve into Benny Morris's historic treatment of
    > >nakba of 48 yet, but have read that things are not quite as dandy as the
    > >Judenstaat creation myths make them out to be. There was an Arab majority
    > >the Palestinian portion of the Ottoman empire previous to the aliyahs.
    > >Organized Zionism resulted in an influx of diaspora Jews. Still the
    > >proportions as I recall favored the Arabs. Then during Israel's War of
    > >Independence (aka the Palestinian nakba) there was a displacment of
    > >Palestinian Arabs from Israel proper. This was best for the fledgling
    > >Israeli state if they were to be democratic, since demography favoring
    > >would not be in their interests at the voting booth.
    > >
    >As I have said before, Israel was born through terrorism, and it was
    >sponsored by USAnian Zionists - with the knowledge of all, including the
    >"The Jews of America (sic) are with you. You are their champion. You are
    >the grin they wear. You are the feather in their hats...Every time you blow
    >up a British arsenal, or wreck a British jail, or send a British train
    >sky-high, or rob a British bank, or let go with your guns and bombs at the
    >British betrayers and invaders of your homeland, the Jews of America (sic)
    >make a little holiday in their hearts." (Ben Hecht, New York Herald Tribune
    >5/15/47. In 'The Palestinians' Jonathan Dimbleby, Quartet Books, London,
    >1979, p.83)
    >"I am sorry gentlemen, but I have to answer to hundreds of thousands of
    >those who are anxious for the success of Zionism; I do not have hundreds of
    >thousands of Arabs in my constituents." (FDR addressing Arab leaders at the
    >White House. In 'FDR meets Ibin Saud', New York, 1954, p.37)
    >Virtually all of Israel's first Cabinet was wanted for crimes of terror
    >against the British, including Ze'evi whose assassination lead to the
    >current round of 'eye-for-an-eye' killings. Doubtless Osama will be a
    >legitimate target for the rest of his days, but that's different.
    >There are two sides Joe, and therefore two perspectives.

    You were replying to what I said, not Lawry.

    LEHI and Irgun were Jewish terror groups, but I don't think it's valid to cast the entirety of Zionism or the early Israeli state this way. I will have to dig deeper into this, but I recall that Ben-Gurion and his Labor Zionists weren't exactly on the same page as Begin or Shamir. Plus, Haganah
    (and Palmach) could probably be seen as distinct from the terror groups as Haganah was the precursor to the IDF.

    One incident, of note, might be that concerning the Altalena ship which was a battle between the Irgun and the emergent IDF.

    _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*

    =============================================================== This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing) see:

    This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Sun 24 Nov 2002 - 17:26:03 GMT