RE: Islam and Europe and the Palestinians and the Left and the anti-American Lawry

From: Lawrence DeBivort (debivort@umd5.umd.edu)
Date: Sat 23 Nov 2002 - 22:54:42 GMT

  • Next message: Douglas Brooker: "Re: Why Europe is so Contrary"

    Joe, do you really think that wandering around accusing everybody of being
    'Jew-hating' innoculates you against the charge of anti-Semitism? Guess again...

    Re. your "quotes" -- when you provide the original sources and full context, we will begin to take your factoid level of research more seriously. Try again.

    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf
    > Of joedees@bellsouth.net
    > Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 4:49 PM
    > To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
    > Subject: RE: Islam and Europe and the Palestinians and the Left and the
    > anti-American Lawry
    >
    >
    > > Joe is at it again...now focusing his diatribe on the Palestinians.
    > > The Palestinians, you see, in Joe's world, abandoned their homes
    > > voluntarily. They were really happy, Joe will tell us, to give their
    > > lands and homes and political existence to the Israelis. There was of
    > > course no such thing as the Dar Yassin massacres, in Joe's particular
    > > worldview. There was no such thing as the refusal to allow the
    > > Palestinians to return to their country or homes. In later emails,
    > > Joe will also probably tell us that the Palestinians who did manage to
    > > remain in the territories taken by Israel live as full citizens of
    > > Israel, and not as second-class citizens, whose homes are subject to
    > > unilateral forfeiture whenever Israel wants them. Really, when you get
    > > right down to it in Joe's worldview, the Palestinians have no reason
    > > at all to be waging a war against Israel. They are, Joe will tell us,
    > > just plain old anti-Jewish and tools of the world-wide cannibalistic
    > > memetic Muslim something or other...
    > >
    > Did you read the quotes I posted? If not, I will post them again
    > for you.
    > See if you can pass them through your Jew-hating memetic filters this
    > time.
    >
    > "The fact that there are these refugees is the direct consequence of
    > the act of the Arab states in opposing partition and the Jewish
    > state. The Arab states agree upon this policy unanimously and
    > they must share in the solution of the problem."
    > Emile Ghoury, secretary of the Palestinian Arab Higher
    > Committee, in an interview with the Beirut Telegraph Sept. 6,
    > 1948.
    >
    > "The Arab state which had encouraged the Palestine Arabs to
    > leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the
    > Arab invasion armies, have failed to keep their promise to help
    > these refugees."
    > The Jordanian daily newspaper Falastin, Feb. 19, 1949.
    >
    > "Who brought the Palestinians to Lebanon as refugees, suffering
    > now from the malign attitude of newspapers and communal
    > leaders, who have neither honor nor conscience? Who brought
    > them over in dire straits and penniless, after they lost their honor?
    > The Arab states, and Lebanon amongst them, did it."
    > The Beirut Muslim weekly Kul-Shay, Aug. 19, 1951.
    >
    > "The 15th May, 1948, arrived ... On that day the mufti of
    > Jerusalem appealed to the Arabs of Palestine to leave the country,
    > because the Arab armies were about to enter and fight in their
    > stead."
    > The Cairo daily Akhbar el Yom, Oct. 12, 1963.
    >
    > "For the flight and fall of the other villages it is our leaders who
    > are responsible because of their dissemination of rumors
    > exaggerating Jewish crimes and describing them as atrocities in
    > order to inflame the Arabs ... By spreading rumors of Jewish
    > atrocities, killings of women and children etc., they instilled fear
    > and terror in the hearts of the Arabs in Palestine, until they fled
    > leaving their homes and properties to the enemy."
    > The Jordanian daily newspaper Al Urdun, April 9, 1953.
    >
    > Actually, the Palestinians who stayed in Israel proper have been
    > granted Israeli citizenship, and are allowed to vote in Israeli
    > elections. The 700,000 Jewish refugees displaced by the
    > surrounding Muslim countries were accepted into Israel, but the
    > surrounding Muslim countries refused to settle the Palestinian
    > Muslims within their borders. The two countries which have
    > killed the most palestinians remain Jordan and Syria; Jordan
    > killed 20,000 of them in one slaughter, more than Israel has killed
    > in its entire existence. Where's your condemnation of THAT
    > atrocity?
    >
    > I would dearly love to see a two-state solution with Israel and
    > Palestine living side-by-side in peace and harmony, and sharing as
    > their common capitol the internationalized city of Jerusalem.
    > However, the Palestinian that negotiates such a settlement will be
    > assassinated by elements of Hamas, Hizbullah, Islamic Jihad,
    > Tanzim, the Al Aqsa Martyr's Brigade or some other indigenous
    > Radical Muslim terror organization, much as Israel's Yitzhak
    > Rabin, who was trying to do the same, was killed by a Jewish
    > Zionist extremist.
    > >
    > > Now Joe will run off to his true-blue websites (the more anonymous or
    > > bigoted or self-serving the better!) and conjure up another round of
    > > bit extractions from reality, with which Joe populates his worldview.
    > >
    > The websites I have pulled from include the New Yorker, the Atlantic
    > Monthly, Foreign Affairs, Foreign Policy, Policy Review, MEMRI, etc.
    > They are neither anonymous nor bigoted nor self-serving. And where
    > does Lawry get documentation to support his vicious assertions against
    > me and afainst anyone who would dispute his narrow-minded and
    > propagandistic view? Of, that's right, he doesn't bother with
    > such things
    > at all, does he?
    > >
    > > > -----Original Message-----
    > > > From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On
    > > > Behalf Of joedees@bellsouth.net Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002
    > > > 4:06 PM To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk Subject: RE: Islam and Europe and Joe
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > > At 12:40 PM 23/11/02 -0600, you wrote:
    > > > > >> At 12:37 PM 22/11/02 -0500, you wrote:
    > > > > >> >
    > > > > >> >Hi, Scott,
    > > > > >> >By 'anti-Semitic' I mean bigoted against any or all Semitic
    > > > > >> >races, including Arabs. Islam, being a religion, would not be
    > > > > >> >included, though of course many Muslims are Arabs and vice
    > > > > >> >versa. My experience of bigots is that their bigotry can swing
    > > > > >> >around at anytime to attack anyone who is 'different,' so it
    > > > > >> >should not bring much comfort to Jews - or anyone else - that
    > > > > >> >Joe has so far focused his anti-Semitism on Arabs and Muslims.
    > > > > >>
    > > > > >> I think that we need to separate Zionism, (an aggressive
    > > > > >> political position which supports the creation of the Greater
    > > > > >> Israeli State, genocide and ethnic cleansing), Judaism (the
    > > > > >> religion) and Jews (the Jewish people). The area of land
    > > > > >> claimed by Zion is that which was 'given' to Abraham and his
    > > > > >> descendants by his God in a 'vision'. I've always thought that
    > > > > >> it was fairly suspect land deal (no witnesses). See Gen. 15:
    > > > > >> 18-21. Personally I don't mind Judaism or Jews but I think that
    > > > > >> the US backed Zionist movement is the most dangerous political
    > > > > >> force in the World today. <snip>
    > > > > >>
    > > > > >I must disagree with you, and so must most of the non-Muslim
    > > > > >world. The most dangerous political force in the world today,
    > > > > >wreaking havoc
    > > > > > and terror across the globe from Bali to Kashmir to Jerusalem to
    > > > > > New York, is undoubtedly the memeset of Radical Islam.
    > > > > >>
    > > > > Joe as I read it, even Osama was reacting against US/Israeli
    > > > > persecution and expansionism.
    > > > >
    > > > Actually, what originally pissed him off was the Saudi family
    > > > blowing off his offer for his four thousand (at the time) mujaheddin
    > > > to defend Saudi Arabia in a jihad against Iraq before the start of
    > > > the Gulf War twelve years ago, and instead bringing in the
    > > > disgusting, hated, despised, Godless infidel unbeliever US to defend
    > > > the holy Mecca and Medina, and sully the sacred soil of the Muslim
    > > > Holy Sand. He used his other two points - the Palestinian situation
    > > > and a later inverted sympathy for the very Iraq he offered to fight
    > > > - as ways to sway gullible jihadist wannabees into making the
    > > > commitment to join his terror army.
    > > > >
    > > > >I have not read anywhere that he was
    > > > > attempting to convert the world to Islam - as you keep saying. The
    > > > > requests from most of the Muslim world are as stated by Al Baz in
    > > > > the piece that I sent you. If those four conditions were met the
    > > > > Islamofasists, as you name them rightly, would have no more
    > > > > support base than the KKK has in Christendom. The problem is the
    > > > > aggressive Zionist expansionism.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > ===============================================================
    > > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
    > > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
    > > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
    > > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
    > >
    >
    >
    >
    > ===============================================================
    > This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
    > Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
    > For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
    > see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
    >

    =============================================================== This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing) see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit



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