Date: Sat 23 Nov 2002 - 21:06:11 GMT
> At 12:40 PM 23/11/02 -0600, you wrote:
> >> At 12:37 PM 22/11/02 -0500, you wrote:
> >> >
> >> >Hi, Scott,
> >> >By 'anti-Semitic' I mean bigoted against any or all Semitic races,
> >> >including Arabs. Islam, being a religion, would not be included,
> >> >though of course many Muslims are Arabs and vice versa. My
> >> >experience of bigots is that their bigotry can swing around at
> >> >anytime to attack anyone who is 'different,' so it should not
> >> >bring much comfort to Jews - or anyone else - that Joe has so far
> >> >focused his anti-Semitism on Arabs and Muslims.
> >> I think that we need to separate Zionism, (an aggressive political
> >> position which supports the creation of the Greater Israeli State,
> >> genocide and ethnic cleansing), Judaism (the religion) and Jews
> >> (the Jewish people). The area of land claimed by Zion is that which
> >> was 'given' to Abraham and his descendants by his God in a
> >> 'vision'. I've always thought that it was fairly suspect land deal
> >> (no witnesses). See Gen. 15: 18-21. Personally I don't mind Judaism
> >> or Jews but I think that the US backed Zionist movement is the most
> >> dangerous political force in the World today. <snip>
> >I must disagree with you, and so must most of the non-Muslim world.
> >The most dangerous political force in the world today, wreaking havoc
> > and terror across the globe from Bali to Kashmir to Jerusalem to New
> > York, is undoubtedly the memeset of Radical Islam.
> Joe as I read it, even Osama was reacting against US/Israeli
> persecution and expansionism.
Actually, what originally pissed him off was the Saudi family blowing off his offer for his four thousand (at the time) mujaheddin to defend Saudi Arabia in a jihad against Iraq before the start of the Gulf War twelve years ago, and instead bringing in the disgusting, hated, despised, Godless infidel unbeliever US to defend the holy Mecca and Medina, and sully the sacred soil of the Muslim Holy Sand. He used his other two points - the Palestinian situation and a later inverted sympathy for the very Iraq he offered to fight - as ways to sway gullible jihadist wannabees into making the commitment to join his terror army.
>I have not read anywhere that he was
> attempting to convert the world to Islam - as you keep saying. The
> requests from most of the Muslim world are as stated by Al Baz in the
> piece that I sent you. If those four conditions were met the
> Islamofasists, as you name them rightly, would have no more support
> base than the KKK has in Christendom. The problem is the aggressive
> Zionist expansionism.
Actually, the reason that Israel conquered the West Bank, Gaza and the Golan Heights was as a counteroffensive to aggression by its Muslim neighbors (Jordan, Egypt and Syria). The Palestinians who left Israel in 1948 were not tossed out by Israel; rather they were told to leave by those who attacked Israel, so that they would not be in the way of the invading armies. They then did not help the Palestinian refugees they had enticed to leave, for that would have removed a continuing thorn from Israel's side. Even the Muslim aggressors have acknowledged as much.
"The fact that there are these refugees is the direct consequence of
the act of the Arab states in opposing partition and the Jewish
state. The Arab states agree upon this policy unanimously and
they must share in the solution of the problem."
“ Emile Ghoury, secretary of the Palestinian Arab Higher Committee, in an interview with the Beirut Telegraph Sept. 6, 1948.
"The Arab state which had encouraged the Palestine Arabs to
leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the
Arab invasion armies, have failed to keep their promise to help
“ The Jordanian daily newspaper Falastin, Feb. 19, 1949.
"Who brought the Palestinians to Lebanon as refugees, suffering
now from the malign attitude of newspapers and communal
leaders, who have neither honor nor conscience? Who brought
them over in dire straits and penniless, after they lost their honor?
The Arab states, and Lebanon amongst them, did it."
“ The Beirut Muslim weekly Kul-Shay, Aug. 19, 1951.
"The 15th May, 1948, arrived ... On that day the mufti of
Jerusalem appealed to the Arabs of Palestine to leave the country,
because the Arab armies were about to enter and fight in their
“ The Cairo daily Akhbar el Yom, Oct. 12, 1963.
"For the flight and fall of the other villages it is our leaders who
are responsible because of their dissemination of rumors
exaggerating Jewish crimes and describing them as atrocities in
order to inflame the Arabs ... By spreading rumors of Jewish
atrocities, killings of women and children etc., they instilled fear
and terror in the hearts of the Arabs in Palestine, until they fled
leaving their homes and properties to the enemy."
“ The Jordanian daily newspaper Al Urdun, April 9, 1953.
> And, Joe, we know who you think is more
> dangerous - you have made it abundantly clear. What I was saying is
> that the majority of even the Brits and the Ausies - polls have been
> done - think that the Iraq thing is a beat-up for oil.
That is where they are wrong; if any oil in the region is of US concern, it is Saudi oil, and the stranglehold that a nuclear Saddam who manages to annex the Arabian Peninsula would have on it. BTW, none of the other countries you mention below have used WMD's on their own people or upon their neighbors' citizens, as has Iraq. Saddam is unique in the ranks of sitting despots in that dangerous respect.
> From this data
> I would extrapolate that, worldwide support for the US/Zionist project
> is at an all time low. Pakistan treats its women worse and has a
> military dictatorship, but no oil.
That dictator, Pervez Musharraf, is also aiding in the pursuit of Al Quaedans - and Pakistan is a nuclear power, which means that one must tread carefully around it. The most dangerous nuclear theater in the contemporary world, and one that receives much US diplomatic attention, is between Pakistan and India. Musharraf reversed his country's support of the Afghani Taliban, and has also taken partially successful steps to defang the Muslim guerillas terrorizing Hindus in Kashmir.
> Korea exports missile technology
> and has a nuclear programme, but no oil.
And we do not want to make the same mistake with Iraq (waiting until Saddam makes or gets a nuke and then having to deal with a drastically changed-for-the-worse situation).
> Syria has the largest stocks
> of chemical and biological weapons in the ME, but no oil.
Syria also voted in favor of the UN resolution; their new leader, Bashir Assad (Hafez' son), is a relatively well-informed webgeek who is performing a balancing act with hardline factions in his country while slowly attempting to miderate them. However, their proxy war on Israel
(via allowing Lebanon to be used to base Iran-supported Hizbullah guerillas) is a real concern in the area. Israel is attempting to negotiate the return of the Golan Heights in return for security guarantees; I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if part of the security guarantees Israel desires is the removal of the Bekaa Valley access Hisbullah currently enjoys.
> Use that
> marvellous brain of yours Joe, and go figure Jeremy
As you can see, I HAVE been figuring - for a long, long time.
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> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
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> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
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