Re: Post-Saddam Iraq?

Date: Mon 11 Nov 2002 - 22:55:29 GMT

  • Next message: "Re: Post-Saddam Iraq?"

    > ----- Original Message -----
    > From: <>
    > > > Kenneth,
    > > > << The US has showed in the first Gulf War how to proceed in order
    > > > to defeat Saddam, wouldn 't the US help out the entire Middle-
    > > > East forces to drive him out !? It would , so why is that scenario
    > > > never been tried !? Why is the US so eager to do it themselves,
    > > > where is the snatch !?
    > Joe,
    > > Where have you been the past few months? The US had been diligently
    > > building a coalition to do just that, and working for the UN
    > > Security Council resolution recently unanimously passed.
    > << Joe, I meant only a coalition with Middle- East forces, if like the
    > US speculates Saddam is a threat to the whole of the region !? IIRC,
    > the US was not at war with Iraq when they attacked it the first time
    > around, there was no reason why the rest of NATO should join the US in
    > the battle. After 9/ 11 the picture is indeed changed. Why was the US
    > demanding European help the first time when accor- ding to the
    > convention of NATO itself the US was NOT at war with Iraq !? IIRC,
    > point 5 in NATO 's codebook stipulates that the rest if they are able,
    > to contribute what they think is necessary when one other member is
    > engaged in a war. The US wasn 't at war with Iraq !
    Some of the Middle Eastern nations joined in the coalition, but more global consensus was considered to be a good thing - and it was achieved.
    > Joe,
    > > And the US interests were at stake in Somalia? No. And whose
    > > interests were at stake in Bosnia and Kosovo? Europe's, not the
    > > US's, but Europe lacked the cojones to curb a fascist genocidal
    > > bloodletter in their own back yard, so it fell to the US to do it
    > > for them. And yes, the
    > US
    > > has been engaged in attempting to negotiate a comprehensive Middle
    > > East peace settlement for many years, and US participation and
    > > mediation has been pivotal in the Northern Ireland peace process.
    > I don 't doubt it, Joe ! Somalia !? Interests, possibly to protect the
    > entrance of the Red Sea or the Gulf of Aden !? Didn 't a tanker blew
    > sky high in Yemen last month !? US interests, maybe not that visible,
    > but they are there !
    Yemen is much more interesting to the US, being an Arabian Peninsula nation that harbors Al Quaedans; they are cooperating with us. One would think that France would be more upset at Al Quaeda now, since it was their tanker that was targeted.
    > Kenneth,
    > > > << Killing him, Joe ! They never tried ! Bombing one nuclear
    > > > reaction didn 't lift him out of the saddle !
    > Joe,
    > > It's not just him; if he were killed, one of his two sons would
    > > replace
    > him,
    > > and they're just as bad. The *regime* has to be changed.
    > I understand, ut it would give a boost to the opposition, wouldn 't it
    > !? OOhh, what a chance they would be given!
    Let's hope they put it to benevolent use.
    > Kenneth,
    > > > was, was ordered back, because due to international conventions,
    > > > the one nation which overthrows another its regime is due to
    > > > support the nations people, the US left Saddam in charge in order
    > > > to come a second time around if they needed another scapegoat.
    > Joe,
    > > In retrospect, to leave Saddam in power in Iraq was a mistake; we
    > > should've changed the regime then, and saved the Iraqi citizenry and
    > > the world at large twelve years of Saddamic misery.
    > Yes it was ! Was the UN that blind !? I doubt that !
    I don't; the UN WAS indeed that blind; I hope that they see more clearly now, with the benefit of the last twelve years of hindsight.
    > > > > > There is no record of such attempts, not even the slightest
    > Kenneth,
    > > > The US does the same ! For us or against us, remerber !?
    > Joe,
    > > I most sincerely doubt if Dubya regales himself during dinner with
    > > tapes of the torture of his enemies and rivals; he certainly has not
    > > had any killed here that we know about (and since, unlike Iraq, we
    > > have a free press, we would know about the murder of politicians).
    > That is not what I meant, Joe ! The US forces others to take part in
    > their scheme, asking many to die !
    The US asks but does not force; other nations are free not to join US coalitions, and indeed have refused many times.
    > Under the scheme of national
    > security Kennedy was willing to set foot on Cuba !
    The Bay of Pigs was a stupid blunder; if the US was going to do it, they shouldn't have depended solely on a Cuban expatriate army to accomplish the goal. And later, the Soviet Union was installing nuclear missiles in Cuba, 90 miles from the US shoreline - or have you forgot? (Hint: That's why it was called the Cuban MISSILE Crisis). We agreed not to invade Cuba, and the Soviets agreed to remove the nukes.
    >How far can you
    > drive this !? How many died in the Cold War, protecting US interests
    > around the globe ! Saddam kills people or watch them die, the US asked
    > people if they were willing to die, under torture if they were to be
    > snapped...where is the diffe- rence !?
    How many died protecting Soviet interests? It cut both ways. Saddam doen't ask people's cooperation and permission like the US does; he simply kills people.
    > Joe,
    > > Global leadership imposes the moral responsibility to alleviate
    > > suffering and liberate the oppressed where it is possible for the US
    > > to do so and where other countries refuse to do it. It is a meme;
    > > the US feels good about itself when it does the right thing. Also,
    > > perhaps the US was hoping against hope that the Muslim world would
    > > give it some credit for its efforts on behalf of Islamic peoples;
    > > that hope seems to have been largely forlorn.
    > Oh, is that what the us is, the leader of the planet !?
    By default, as the only remaining superpower, yes.
    > Sorry, Joe, what the US tries to do, they impose on themselves, noone
    > asked them to do it !
    Wrong. People ask the US to step in and restore order all the time.
    > It is arrogant to say it the US moral
    > obligation, that is drained in what I always suspected what runs
    > underneath the US and that is religion, Gods own country is tying to
    > conquer the world and any opposition will be crushed ! Good show !
    Actually, umm, no. If the US really wanted to 'conquer the world', they could do a damn sight better job of it than by leaving everywhere they step in.
    > Joe,
    > > The "elections" held in Iraq are reminiscent of those held in Third
    > > Reich Germany. Elections that the US would set up would be free and
    > > fair, and monitors would be welcomed in to observe them. Just like
    > > happened in post- WW II Germany and Japan. Eminently democratic.
    > Yes, the elections held last month were a scam, no doubt about that,
    > though, but if you think that the elections which will be set up by
    > the US are biased in the democratic ruling of the democratic
    > principles itself, you are so wrong ! The Iraqi people would have no
    > choise to choose either for or against the elections, they will be
    > held, no matter what ! Democracy, no way ! You have to consider the
    > fact that the possibility exist that the people would reject the
    > possibility that they have a choise... but I undestand we have to
    > start somewhere....even it is IMO the wrong way...
    It would be a contradiction in terms for a people to choose not to choose. To give people an electoral choice is not to constrain them, but to liberate them from totalitarian constraints.
    > Kenneth
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