RE: The ISIS site and Joe's other sources

From: Scott Chase (
Date: Mon 11 Nov 2002 - 04:19:09 GMT

  • Next message: Grant Callaghan: "RE: Islamic beliefs and their memetic sources"

    >From: "Lawrence DeBivort" <>
    >To: <>
    >Subject: RE: The ISIS site and Joe's other sources
    >Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 21:36:11 -0500
    >Ah, Joe...check out the primary references, the primary sources, and stop
    >depending on these derivative sources.... If you want to cite Lewis, well
    >then, CITE him. Don't screw around with derivative material. Or, stop
    >taking Lewis' name in vain. You were the one who invoked Lewis, calling
    >the 'doyen' of Middle East studies, and now I am suspecting from this last
    >message of yours that you haven't even read ANY of his books, or attended
    >ANY of his lectures.
    So Joe may not have attended any of Lewis's lectures. Sounds like you're being patronizing here. Maybe he's got Lewis wrong. I dunno. I haven't attended ANY of his lectures(???) so I'm not qualified for an exegesis of his works.
    >PLEASE tell me I am wrong, Joe, and that the whole of
    >your thinking is based on something more than the opinionizing of
    >commentators.... These folks are wannabe meme-smiths, Joe; you've got to
    >better than this.
    So Joe is trying to offer criticism of Islam. Maybe some of the criticism goes too far. Would you prefer bubbling laudatory expositions? Are you critical of Islam (or some of its variants) especially in light of Sept 11? We could all be happy to bash American foreign policy blunders like aiding the mujahideen (some of whom shifted to the Northern Alliance and not Taliban or "Afghan-Arab" al-Qaeda, correct)? And occupying the land of the sacred shrines after attacking an "Islamic" gov't (or secular Baathist regime which attacked other Muslims including Iranians, Iraqi Kurds, Iraqi Shia, and Kuwaitis). There's lots of criticism to be placed upon U.S. policies. But what about the other side of the attacks of 9-11? What
    "memetic" forces played a role in their emergence? Was Islam absent in this emergence of al-Qaeda? We can pontificate upon the ignorance of the American people and the Bush posse kissups all we want, but this focus to the exclusion of "memetic" forces at play on the other side distorts the overall picture. Take off your rose-colored glasses and meet Joe head on or stop griping about him.
    >So, unless your next email is unduly provocative, post all the urls to
    >secondary sources you want, I'm on to more productive things....
    >-----Original Message-----
    >From: []On Behalf Of
    >Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 9:00 PM
    >Subject: RE: The ISIS site and Joe's other sources
    > > Joe, I have in my library about a half-dozen of Bernard Lewis' books,
    > > and have read them all. If you have actually read any of his writings,
    > > such as his extraordinary work on how the Muslim/Arab world
    > > 'discovered' Europe, you will see that he hardly supports your
    > > patronizing and condemnatory view of the world.
    > >
    > > But we have to stop meeting like this: I have things I want to get to,
    > > and I do not think any of these exchanges are budging your thinking,
    > > nor, thinking selfishly, generating any greater memetic insight into
    > > how you have derived these views than I already have. As I said in my
    > > last message, check in with me when and if you consult any of the
    > > easily available sources I suggest. Combing the world for duplicative
    > > anti-Muslim expressions and posting them here is not getting anyone
    > > anywhere. Since Sept 11, and since the end of the Cold War, such
    > > expressions abound, which is why we must hold ourselves to higher
    > > standards here and bring to our endeavours an understanding of the
    > > memetic dynamics that are at play.
    > >
    > > I have made my point regarding your views and their sources adequately
    > > clear in this forum, and so I break off this discussion with you.
    > >
    > > Best regards,
    > > Lawry
    > >
    >And I will post the url's to those essays so that others can judge that
    >your characterization of Bernard Lewis' work is self-sevingly flawed.
    >This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
    >Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
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