Date: Mon 04 Nov 2002 - 19:34:54 GMT
> > > > >
> > > >These cues are innate and generally the same or extremely similar
> > > >for conspecifics within a species, whereas human communication is
> > > >arbitrary and by mutual convention, and unlike genetically
> > > >hardwired behavior, must be created, learned and taught.
> > > > >
> > >
> > > I never said they had culture. Merely that they communicate and
> > > that what they communicate influences the behavior of the other
> > > members of the species. If your definition of a meme requires
> > > human behavior, then of course other species won't be able to meet
> > > the test. But will your definition meet the test of acceptance by
> > > the majority of your peers?
> > >
> >My definition of memes requires the ability to consciously choose to
> >or not to either receive or transmit at least some of them, on the
> >basis of their meaning.
> > >
> > > Grant
> > >
> Does the ram who refuses to compete with a larger opponent or the
> female who refuses those who don't compete meet that requirement? The
> larger ram issues a challenge and the smaller ram thinks, "No way."
> and turns away. The ewe is in turn turned on by the larger ram's
> performance but refuses the advances of the smaller ram.
> There you have communication of a challenge, the choice of whether or
> not to accept, refusal, and the smaller ram's life changed by the
> decision. You also have the communication of superiority by the
> larger ram to both males and females by his performance and the female
> making a decision based on that performance. Her performance in turn
> confirms the larger ram's assertion of superiority and the females
> confirmation of it. If she chose not to mate with him, her action
> would deny it.
> Again, information was passed through action to other members of the
> species. Decisions were made on the basis of that action. Lives were
> changed because of it. In addition, the lives of the whole herd will
> be affected because the winning ram assumes a leadership role and the
> rest of the herd follows his lead about where to search for food and
> where to run when danger threatens. The loser becomes just another
> follower until he gets bigger and stronger. There is also a pecking
> order that is understood by the members of the herd based on those
> actions of challenger and decliner. On the female side, the ones who
> accepted sex from the top ram get protection from other members of the
> herd and a consequently higher place in the pecking order.
> It's not so different from human females who accept sexual favors from
> the boss at work and consequently better their position in the
> hierarchy of the company. Or at least hope they will. Though
> language makes our memes more complex, the purposes they serve still
> reflect where wecame from. Pecking order is common to just about all
> herding or flocking animals and the information of where a member
> stands in that order is communicated and understood by the other
> members. Once communicated, that information is acted upon and
> occasionally challenged by the other members. The information is
> learned by experience and passed on by performance.
You could just as easily have made the case with a wolf pack, but we are still discussing an instinctive, not a chosen, series of actions. Self- preservation trumps sex in the ram hard-wire hierarchy, and the female doen't seem to have the choice of mating with the smaller ram because she thinks he is cute. The pecking order is a lockstep structure.
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> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
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