Date: Thu 31 Oct 2002 - 08:14:49 GMT
> On Wednesday, October 30, 2002, at 10:57 , email@example.com
> > And what about the storage of meme-ory?
> The fact of memory is self-evident.
> What about the storage of meme-ory? How is that self-evident?
The meme is what is stored in memory. If one is self-evident, so is the other.
> > But to obviate my point, you would have to be thinking of nothing,
> > both before and during your automatic-writing performance.
> Writing is both intentional and haphazard, directed and aleatory- I am
> not making a claim that it is 'automatic' at all. I am merely saying
> that I do not, regardless of how carefully I think about it, capable
> of commanding precisely what falls from my fingers, and I do claim
> that no-one is, ever, nor has been. Other things can and do happen,
But you cannot claim that all your typing is automatic, random and fortuitous, without additionally claiming that you are quite a remarkably statistic-violating zombie.
> > Uh-uh. In the first case, we have physical differences;
> My first case was a specific species of spider making specific webs
> against varying supports- I stand by it- this is a hard-wired
> stratagem that nevertheless, due to purely environmental differences,
> will produce similar but non-identical webs. Language is precisely
> this sort of stratagem, and environment will produce similar but
> non-identical structures.
But WHICH language? There are so many human-created languages, but only one type of spider web per species, of which all the instantiations are tokens.
> > in the second,
> > we have cultural, that is, cognitive ones - exactly the kind of
> > thing your behavior-only attempt at memetics cannot admit without
> > self- destructing.
> My second case was English vs. Chinese- yes, cultural differences, but
> differences produced by _one_ unique species, homo sapiens, in
> different physical and cultural environments, environment being the
> _only_ differing circumstance as the cognitive ability for language is
> genetic and developmental, and thus the only affector of the language
> difference. No destruction of the behavior-only memetic model is
> occuring at any time in this, in fact, I see only underscoring and
> support for the model, and, yes, self-destruction of the meme in the
> mind model, as we cannot have had, at any time, a memetic transfer
> across the Pacific Ocean, and yet we have languages on both shores. It
> is the behavior that needed to change with the environment, not some
> imaginary entity placed in a brain by some imaginary process involving
> an ancillary layer of memory and cognition.
But spiders do not teach each other how to weave their webs. And yet we teach our children our languages. That difference is cognition- specific, for we can only teach them the languages we have not only experientially learned but also cognitively stored.
> - Wade
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> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
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This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
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