Date: Wed 16 Oct 2002 - 17:05:59 GMT
> On Wednesday, October 16, 2002, at 11:54 , firstname.lastname@example.org
> > A concept can be retooled, a speech can be rewritten or a
> > melody can be recomposed in the mind (I can talk to myself, hear,
> > and play tunes there if I try) before they are ever written down,
> > spoken or sung.
> But nobody's ever going to give a shit. And if no-one sees, hears, or
> knows about your idea, it's not there. Is there such a thing as a meme
> that is not there? Not in my book. It's either performed, or it's not.
> Literally. Your idea is useless memetically until you perform the
> behavior of expressing it.
Nope. You can do the work ahead of time, and then perform it later. when was the meme then modified? Obviously when the mental work was done. And the be modified, it has to exist.
> Besides, how can I, or anyone else, know this 'idea' of yours unless
> you behave it?
I know what song I'm going to sing before I sing it, and even where I plan to change things around a bit. The same with what I plan to say.
> Really, this concept of 'memes being in the head' is becoming quite
> ridiculous to me. The brain is what it is, and, once we perform
> memetic actions (memes), these brain things become known. Before that,
> all they are is brain activity, background, memories, conceptions,
> without voice or presence. Once performed, once entered into the
> cultural arena, they have, at least, a chance of survival memetically.
> Your unexpressed idea is not even in the ballpark, to use another
They cannot be replicated before they are formed; and they are formed in mentation and ideation. I do not care if as-yet-noumenal memes seem ridiculous to you; a paralyzed person cannot replicate memes, but neither can a brainless one, and the mentation logically precedes the action.
> You can't win any cultural survival game unless you're playing.
> And, yeah, it helps to have a program once the players are out on the
> field, but, even the audience is performing, and your idea, in your
> head, is not. It ain't even there, memetically. It's a ghost, and
> that's being kind.
It's actual. Try getting memes out of a dead brain. You can't. But a living brain, that can hold and modify neural network excitation/dampening patterns, is indeed capable of translating them into action.
> > It makes no sense to say that Sunday churchgoers
> > reconvert to their faith once a week.
> Never said they did. But they continue the meme of showing up. Whether
> they are converted, reconverted, faithful, or unfaithful is unknown
> and irrelevant. They continued the behavior of showing up, and once
> there, perhaps continue other behaviors common to this meme-plex
> called church.
Yep, and if they think on Wednesday, "I'm going to church again Sunday", they are mentally rehearsing the further performance of the selfsame meme, but if they decide they will miss one Sunday because of a concert they wish to catch, they have engaged in the mental modification of a mentally present meme.
> But they are behaving.
This definition fits only if you consider unobservable-by-others thinking to be a type of behavior.
> - Wade
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
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