Re: Boom! and you go to Heaven

From: Kenneth Van Oost (
Date: Thu May 23 2002 - 15:05:08 BST

  • Next message: Grant Callaghan: "Another flash point abuilding?"

    Received: by id PAA25473 (8.6.9/5.3[ref] for from; Thu, 23 May 2002 15:00:52 +0100
    Message-ID: <000901c20262$fa426120$dda0eb3e@default>
    From: "Kenneth Van Oost" <>
    To: <>
    References: <>
    Subject: Re: Boom! and you go to Heaven
    Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 16:05:08 +0200
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
    X-Priority: 3
    X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
    X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300
    X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300
    Precedence: bulk

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Wade T.Smith <>

    > It's more to the point to see what has made their minds so weak.

    Hi Wade, all,

    This is a very important/ interesting observation, not in the least its
    perfectly my own view about memetics.
    A long story,

    IMO, we 're memetically ( getting) fixed_ mend to be individuals, but
    that ain 't the material to built a society from isn 't it !?
    But, in Nietzsches terms, the death of god did poclaim that other cer-
    tainties also crumbled and in that respect, the suspicion that everything
    and everyone is out of control becomes a collective idea/ assumption.
    The desintegration is due to our time_ nothing stands on its own two
    feet anymore, everything is slippery, dangerous and rare.
    Individualisation changes profoundly the cultural/ moral and welltan-
    schauung environment_ and that is something what most ' minds / memes'
    or memetic systems are not up to ( yet).
    Still defense systems/ processes are in place and do a great job, but
    like Nietzsche, I have doubts about the mental bearing of people to
    deal with individualism.

    It is like there is a memetic struggle going on in our heads.
    Nietzsche_ ' freedom is no question of some obscure will, but is more
    likely a mental condition. A free mind is one who regects, deviates, sur-
    prises, thinks in one other way, all cases from out himself/ itself.'
    The thing is with those who commits suicide for a cause that they on the
    one hand lack ' individualism '_ they are just/ only * mix- forms* of
    conformity and freedom. They have a will to selfexpression. ( If you
    count in blowin' yourself up as such).
    On the other hand, to really be free, to be autonominious committing
    suicide as one hell of a true individual for any cause that is, is to raise
    questions noted as in the concept of * suspicion*. It is now the time
    to give our life the direction of our own choosing, not the direction
    which our parents/ society/ environment are/ were used to.

    In a way, memes are getting in a complete new phase of their existence.
    Where in the past everything was biased upon a certain degree/ form
    of collectiviness today memes are grounded into a more indiviualistic
    form of things.
    Where in the past " [memes] worked along lines of coincidence and
    opportunism ( it doesn 't mean to create something once ( you can 't
    built something coherent out of this )), nowadays they work along lines
    of hard- wearing selfmaintenance_ to find an/ their own form.

    Nietzsche_ Vita activa and vita contemplativa. Meaning, the most im-
    portant aspect is the training of the mind itself ! We don 't live to work,
    especially we must work at ourselves, we must work up our notions of
    order and selection_ and that due to the influence/ influx of charges/
    orders and ideas.
    IMO, in the memetic evolution there is today a ' two- speed ' thing
    going on. I don 't know how this came about, although it seems to me
    that this is due to the way I express myself, due to the ways I relate
    to the existing values ( by lacking some values which others did re-
    ceived in their youth for example).

    If this is a fact_ and indiviualism, in the Nietzsches sense of the word,
    is the final expression of this, than in a way, everything I know about
    myself works for me, and only for me !
    In that way, ' my memes ' will flourish_ ' I am than one autonomic,
    undependable human being with one continual will, not something
    that I change if it suits me best, but something I honour, a personal
    From there on my memes will put themselves to the existing values to
    in the end create the proper behavior. This leads up to the notion that
    the organism like I am acts from it entire being, genetically and meme-
    tically. It is not important which personality you develop, but that you
    develop one is !
    Not the context is important to my memes, the form is.

    Form- characteristics ( as unity/ flexibility,..) are more important than
    contextual characteristics as happiness/ wealth or justice. It is how you
    fill these up, it is how you develop these notions to become one dynamic
    For cases like those of the suicide bombers, it is not actualy not that
    important to become a martyr, but the way how you do it, is !
    They choose not death as such, but the way how to die. It draws indeed
    our attention away from what might be the deeper causes, and that is
    just what ' memes ' want_ we see the " form " not the context.

    If you reflect on this and ask people what they think about this, in a
    few cases they will extend their answers to a broader perspective,but
    the most will only remerber the form, the deeper causes are of no inte-
    rest to their memes whatsoever.
    And that is something what is being ignored in many memetic analyses.

    To conclude, if I ever can ' control '/ direct my memes, my genetic
    evolution will follow. I rule out the Darwinian natural, based on
    selection and evolution will become entirely Lamarckian. This is not some
    kind of coarse but something we all must learn to dealt with....

    Many regards,


    This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
    Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
    For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)

    This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Thu May 23 2002 - 15:12:45 BST