simple and transient-state memes

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Date: Tue Apr 09 2002 - 22:26:30 BST

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    Subject: simple and transient-state memes
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    Hi Steve,

    >So in fact the simplest sentence could be "EAT!" as a command with "you"
    > understood and "the food" as the understood D.O. Sentences would not have
    > arisen in the first place if they did not serve a function. This function is
    > to take information from perceptive apparatus, store it, label it, and
    > it to others who are capable of conceiving of pattern and existence.

    It may well have been. It is important to remember the other aspects of
    language. I.e. The non vocal which expands even EAT into many forms, such as
    EAT? (an invite possibly) EAT? (an enquiry) EAT? (an expression of concern
    when someone is ill and not eating). Each expression of EAT? Would be
    accompanied by the appropriate kinesthetic, facial expression and proxemics
    appropriate to the situation and are just as important as the vocalisations.
    In some respects, the non-vocalisations are part of the grammar. After all
    we may have spent much of our evolutionary history as a non vocal species.

    <<<<<<<<<<(is this not semantics???? I am new to linguistics???)The many uses
    of the sentence "Eat" are here conceded to you,since a robust science of
    memetics would require complex memes, but it must be remembered that you are
    referring to usage of language, while I was referring to innate concepts
    required to use language, namely simple memes. If I want to make an
    observation about something I have to perceive it in simple terms. I can
    perceive "you eat food!" the command, "you want to eat food? the invite, a bit
    more complex than my simple example, "you eat food as opposed to something
    else?" also more complex, and "you eat please for you have taken ill and I
    worry about you?", which is decidedly complex (I deliberately made them look
    more complex, but you get the point....the examples you referred to are about
    how we use language, not any universal theme of how we understand the world
    around us.this is what we mean when we say semantics right?) (syntax are the
    rules of grammar are they not? you can correct me there if you like)(so
    memetics then should be rules of perception and memory storage, all other
    complexity of semantics and syntax can thus be derived from memetics)>>>>>>>>>
    > My dog sees me put my shoes on and he goes and sits at the door. He is no
    > doubt anticipating sticking his head out my window going 30 mph down the
    > strip to the pet store (well maybe not the pet store, but he knows he wants
    > go and its not a simple good-bad response, since that same car can take him
    > the vet). another thing that brings him running from the other room is the
    > jingle of my car keys. When I tell him to "Sit", he understands the sentence
    > "I desire that you should sit, and perhaps you'll get a cookie", or some
    > approximation (At the very least "I want you to sit").

    <<<<<sorry,I was vague here, the simplest thought here is "master commands
    you" plus another simple meme "you sit there" or maybe "you sit now".>>>>>

    > This all, perhaps, smacks of skinner's behaviorism, but since I am
    > with the intricacies of that school of thought i cannot be sure it is the
    > thing.

    Pavlov to my mind. Also, it may be that your dog understand the context not
    the command. If you know Pavlov, my apologies for the next bit, but Pavlov
    showed that by using a reward withold sytem he could control the responses
    of dogs. Every time they were about to be fed a bell rang and then they were
    fed. Eventually, the dogs would salivate even though they got no food

    <<<<<Pavlov missed the boat (I'll bet you 5$ that if you continued for two
    years to ring the bell and give no food, the dogs would stop salivating), I
    think, and if Skinner is an extension of that then I don't like him too much
    either. There is no way for thought to proceed without a conception of
    existence(nouns) and transient states (verbs if you prefer that term).
    without it there are only genetic robots and I highly doubt that any such
    creatures exist that can have a complex social structure that is entirely
    mediated by genetic expression (except, perhaps, ants via E.O.Wilsons
    Sociobiology, but there are no sentences here only chemical signals and
    hormonal responses). So the place for sociobiology in humans is here stated:
    Humans have the capacity to perceive the existence of an object and its
    transient states, and IMHO, there should be a remarkable gradation of thought
    throughout vertebrate forms that allows for such incredible complexity. the
    rest is memetics: simple memes (existence and transient-state), simple meme
    sentences, and complex meme sentences.>>>>>>

    IIRC, Skinner took this further and thought that all creatures, us included
    are just a set of conditioned responses to the enviroment we find ourselves
    in. Apparently many of the reductionist soicobiologists still find his views

    > It just appeared a way to get to memes, half-way between language and
    > Genes.
    > just a thought to chew on, guys. your criticism is welcome.
    > Randy



    <<<<<<<<<P.S. the simple meme sentence "Randy is Randy, or "I am me" might
    seem circular reasoning to some of you, but you must take it as given that the
    concept of existence must be used by the memetic actor to say anything, even
    sentences that are affirmation of that existence.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

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