Wildebeest !!

From: Steve Drew (srdrew_1@hotmail.com)
Date: Wed Apr 03 2002 - 17:59:48 BST

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    Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 17:59:48 +0100
    Subject: Wildebeest !!
    From: Steve Drew <srdrew_1@hotmail.com>
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    From: Steve Drew <srdrew_1@hotmail.com>
    Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 21:27:00 +0100
    To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk>
    Subject: Wildebeest !!

    Hi Kenneth
    > Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 21:46:05 +0100
    > From: "Kenneth Van Oost" <Kenneth.Van.Oost@village.uunet.be>
    > Subject: Wildebeest !!
    > This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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    > Hi all,
    > Reading something about altruistic suicide_ somebody kills/ sacrifies =
    > him-
    > self for the good and better cause // youngsters kill themselves because
    > they think that without them around things will get better in the =
    > household_
    > I was wondering !
    > What about the fact that if wildebeests/ zebra's have to cross a river, =
    > can/ may
    > we ' recognize ' the same characteristic lets say by the first animal =
    > that
    > jumps into the water and in most cases will/ can be eaten/ killed by a
    > crocodile !?
    > After all, what is the difference between the act of killing oneself to =
    > get
    > things better and killing yourself by jumping first in the river so that =
    > the
    > group you belong to can/ may cross easier/ savier !? ( If of course my
    > reasoning ends up !!)
    > Of course, and I agree, we can say that it is the wildebeest its =
    > instincts
    > that drives it along and the first who gets to the river has no luck_ =
    > can we
    > forsee a link with the boy who commits suicide in order to take away the
    > tensions that rages in the household !?
    > What makes an animal to go first !? Like we said, instinct !?
    > Ok, but all the beasts does have, I presume an equal characteristic, so
    > in a way, each of them can be the first to jump but only one does it.
    > And yes, we can ackowledge the fact that the one who actually jumps
    > first is forced/ pushed in to it by the group to take the lead, but can =
    > we
    > be sure !?
    > If so, how and why !?
    > We had such an discussion before covering why birds go in one direction
    > presumably all together at the same moment in time ( they follow a =
    > leader),
    > but in the case of the wildebesst, if it was the leader who goes first, =
    > where
    > is the gain for the group, left behind without its captain !?
    > I reckon it will all come down to instinct and internal behavioral =
    > aspects
    > but I can 't stop wondering how mush such behavior corresponds with what
    > we can observe by a human child.
    > Moreover, thinking about it, by ants the same behavior can be spotted_
    > some dive into the water to make a brigde/ a floating harnas to support
    > others so that those can cross, drowning themselves in the process of
    > doing so !

    Ants seem to be programmed for the survival of the colony, rather than any
    idividual as very few can breed with the Queen. So their genetic survival is
    aided by the sacrifice of a few. However, as the ants, IMO, have no self,
    just existance, and so cannot be altruistic in any meaningful sense.

    I don't think you can attribute the wildebeests behaviour of one going first
    is instinctual, as such. I would guess that, just as there are chemical,
    biological, hormonal etc differences between people, so there are with
    wildebeest. So it could depend on which was the hungriest, bearing in mind
    they will have grazed out the area behind, and need to eat fairly
    frequently. Those who leave it too long would be took weak to withstand the
    current. That's my guess anyway.

    BTW, Hotmail detected a bug in your last message that it declared
    'uncurable' so have you now risen from the dead?
    > Anyone !?
    > Regards,
    > Kenneth

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