Received: by alpheratz.cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk id RAA19779 (8.6.9/5.3[ref firstname.lastname@example.org] for cpm.aca.mmu.ac.uk from email@example.com); Tue, 2 Apr 2002 17:14:30 +0100 X-Originating-IP: [18.104.22.168] From: "Grant Callaghan" <firstname.lastname@example.org> To: email@example.com Subject: Re: Wildebeest !! Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 07:08:58 -0800 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: <LAW2-F447GjBm3Xsrc2000110c0@hotmail.com> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Apr 2002 15:08:58.0857 (UTC) FILETIME=[50ACE590:01C1DA58] Sender: firstname.lastname@example.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: email@example.com
>Reading something about altruistic suicide_ somebody kills/ sacrifies him-
>self for the good and better cause // youngsters kill themselves because
>they think that without them around things will get better in the
>I was wondering !
>What about the fact that if wildebeests/ zebra's have to cross a river,
>we ' recognize ' the same characteristic lets say by the first animal that
>jumps into the water and in most cases will/ can be eaten/ killed by a
>After all, what is the difference between the act of killing oneself to get
>things better and killing yourself by jumping first in the river so that
>group you belong to can/ may cross easier/ savier !? ( If of course my
>reasoning ends up !!)
>Of course, and I agree, we can say that it is the wildebeest its instincts
>that drives it along and the first who gets to the river has no luck_ can
>forsee a link with the boy who commits suicide in order to take away the
>tensions that rages in the household !?
>What makes an animal to go first !? Like we said, instinct !?
>Ok, but all the beasts does have, I presume an equal characteristic, so
>in a way, each of them can be the first to jump but only one does it.
>And yes, we can ackowledge the fact that the one who actually jumps
>first is forced/ pushed in to it by the group to take the lead, but can we
>be sure !?
>If so, how and why !?
>We had such an discussion before covering why birds go in one direction
>presumably all together at the same moment in time ( they follow a leader),
>but in the case of the wildebesst, if it was the leader who goes first,
>is the gain for the group, left behind without its captain !?
>I reckon it will all come down to instinct and internal behavioral aspects
>but I can 't stop wondering how mush such behavior corresponds with what
>we can observe by a human child.
>Moreover, thinking about it, by ants the same behavior can be spotted_
>some dive into the water to make a brigde/ a floating harnas to support
>others so that those can cross, drowning themselves in the process of
>doing so !
Why is it that when someone of another culture or religion gives up his life
for what he/she believes in, we suspect insanity or manipulation by people
with evil motives? Policemen and firemen and soldiers willingly put their
lives on the line on a daily basis and no one feels they are being
manipulated. I was seventeen when I joined the marines and a year later was
sent into battle with dozens if not hundreds of other young men my age. We
did it in a spirit of adventure and because that was our job at the time.
Nobody forced us or tricked us. We felt we were doing it for the people
back home, just as the policeman and the fireman is doing it for his
community and his family, should the need arise. Giving ones life for the
people and the ideas one believes in is so common you can see examples of it
in the newspapers every day. But if someone of another culture does it, we
suspect their motives and try to find evidence of manipulation.
If you want to find answers, you need go no further from home than the guy
on the bomb squad who works at disarming bombs or the nurse in the hospital
who comes into contact with infectious diseases in the course of work every
day. There are thousands of people in our society who put themselves in
harm's way for the good of others simply because it needs to be done and
someone must do it. Even the circus performer knows that a moment of
inattention or a hangover can leave him/her crippled or dead.
The Palestinian suicide bomber is no different from any other soldier who
offers his/her life in hopes of making a difference. They are no different
from the Jewish soldier who walks into a hail of bullets in the streets of
Palestine. The kids in the street throwing rocks think it is daring or fun
until they get hurt. Looking for memes and schemes, in my opinion, is a
waste of time and a step in the wrong direction. The reasons are personal
We have a new meme going around over here in the U.S. called suicide by cop.
People who, for any number of reasons, decided they want to end their
lives and go out in a blaze of publicicy, walk out in front of a group of
policemen waving a gun and stand there grinning when told to put it down.
Seconds later they are dead. Who is there to blame for their actions but
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