Re: question about memes

From: Grant Callaghan (
Date: Sat Mar 16 2002 - 03:42:25 GMT

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    From: "Grant Callaghan" <>
    Subject: Re: question about memes
    Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 19:42:25 -0800
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    >From: Philip Jonkers <>
    > > Beg pardon? Killing your 5 children is a rational option in a somewhat
    > > difficult time is rational to you? Thank 'god' I'm not a daughter or son
    > > of you. Excuse me but I'm beginning to have serious doubts about
    > > your own faculty of reason now Kenneth. I can understand that during
    > > times of extreme conditions like (mideval) famines or prospects of
    > > certain mass-destruction and death, such as invasions and war,
    > > you might save your children a lot of misery and suffering and
    > > surrender them to an easy death. In other cases, it sounds like
    > > insanity to the highest degree and everyone who thinks otherwise
    > > should get his/hers head examined.
    ><< Believe me, Philip, these are the things I throw in the open, though !
    >Anyhow, let me explain, I agree, it might seem extreme and I understand
    >you surprise perfectly, but don 't misunderstand me, in the eyes of Yates
    >killing her children is an/ the only option lef and a rational one...for
    >There is nothing wrong with such a kind of reasoning, though, conside-
    >ring the fact that the act of killing the children gives a sense of
    >not in the sense of having pleasure ( like by pedosexual murder), but in
    >the sense of relief_ the children are save now, the children would not have
    >to bear the buders/ hazzards of life,...etc.
    >The same kind of reasoning you find in cases where one or both the
    >parents kill their children and commit suicide, again_ to protect the
    >children and nothing more, to protect the children from knowing that
    >their parents killed themselves and left them behind.
    >I have to admit, such a kind of thinking, and my own faculty of reaso-
    >ning is quite alright ( I am not upset though) is maybe new to you,
    >Philip, but not for me. I came across this a few years ago and since
    >then I am convinced of its contents.
    >Yates, IMO is not an impulsive character, but more the methodical
    >type. She was not socially unadapted, but more someone who was
    >quite adapted for the life she lead_ so it seemed anyway.
    >But the methodical type does ( almost always) have serious problems,
    >where the outside world knows nothing of. This type can prepare/ plan
    >his/ he act years in advance, rolling the film before their own eyes, over
    >and over again and finally, when the string snaps, she will kill !
    >What is surprising though, is that Yates, being woman did kill her
    >children and IIRC not tried to kill herself, but gently rang the police_
    >like she was relieved of a great burder ( maybe revenge).
    >In most cases I came across, only a handful were committed by the
    >mother, and in those she killed her children and committed suicide,
    >afterwards or together with them. Mos cases are done by the father,
    >killing his family and committing suicide. Yates, is a somehow, but
    >interesting case.
    >What you comments about mideval are concerned, of such cases
    >I know not enough about, vaguely it rings a bell ( Egypt ?), but I do
    >not know any precedent in history.
    >OTOH, I do not think that the reason for killing the children lies in
    >the notion of sparing them misery_ IIRC again Egypt, during the
    >great drought people killed their children to stay alive themselves.
    >They ate their children to survive...and I suspect to rebuilt a family
    >when the worse was over. A thought, Philip, people had in Holland
    >a few years ago...!
    >A few months ago there was a program running, Vincent !? can you
    >help me out here, about the reason why some great civiliations dis-
    >appeared from the face of the earth. Evidence was duck up that confirmed
    >tthe theory that in the end, when the peoples were nearly driven to
    >exinction; their children were he only supply of food left_ not a cheer-
    >ful thought, but the hard facts. I have no problem with picturing what
    >happened and what might have been there, think of me as you like,
    >but again, by no means I am upset !
    >The thing is, Philip, with all do respect, and I mean that, memes which
    >spell out conformity towards how we must treat our children are
    >blocking the other direction, that is the place where I stand. In and with
    >the understanding and with the comprehension that anything is possible
    >for any reason, you understand the people who are doing such things,
    >better_, like I try to, if you go inside their head. This leads to some
    >kind of empathy which I have as for the victims as for the ones who
    >commit the deeds. OTOH, you need to keep a certain distance, between
    >both culprit / victim and yourself. The by me, so called workable in-
    >difference is something you need_ in order to keep the understanding
    >and the comprehension going.
    >Hope this helps to understand my point of view,
    >Many regards,
    For eons, farmers in China have been leaving their female children out in
    the cold to die because they only wanted male children. Farmers in India,
    even today, take their wives to a special shop that does sonograms (isn't
    science wonderful?) to see if an unborn baby is male or female. If it's
    female, an abortion is called for. In a way, that's progress. They used to
    have to wait until the baby was born and then kill it. They were reacting
    to social pressure but thought what they were doing was rational.

    For some reason that poor woman in the news felt she could no longer cope
    with her life and religion gave her a way to change it. Her madness and a
    twisted view of her religion allowed her to blame it on the devil. Religion
    was only the excuse -- not the driving force behind her actions. That was
    emotional trauma brought on by the birth of yet another child in a time of
    weakness and stress.



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