From: "Tim Rhodes" <proftim@speakeasy.org>
To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: comparison/contrast of memes and engrams
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 22:19:44 -0700
Mark,
What would describe as the the fitness landscape of an L-meme?
-Tim
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark M. Mills <mmills@htcomp.net>
To: Memetics List <memetics@mmu.ac.uk>
Date: Wednesday, October 13, 1999 8:25 AM
Subject: Re: comparison/contrast of memes and engrams
>Scott,
>
>>Memes, however
>>defined, I would take as mostly external and cultural phenomena.
>
>With respect to 'external,' I assume you think of memes in terms of the
>G-meme definition. With respect to 'cultural phenomena', I don't know
>what you mean. Everyone talking about memes is interested in culture.
>
>>I've been
>>reading about memory research over the past year (mostly on synaptic
>>plasticity and long-term potentiation (Bliss and Lomo etc...) and
>>molecular/electrophysiological correlates and criticisms). I've been
>>intrigued by this particular "search for the engram". Engrams would likely
>>be individual and internal phenomena, contrasted with memes.
>
>What do you mean by saying engrams are 'individual and internal
>phenomena'? When you say 'contrasted to memes,' I assume you mean
>'contrasted with the G-meme.'
>
>>Noticing debate on "internal memes" on this list, I wonder why one would
>>replace the older term engram with a new term "internal meme"? Wouldn't it
>>be better to keep the ideas separate, having memes represent a unit of
>>cultural selection/drift existing outside and engrams representing
>>internal storage units? There could exist a chasm between research into
>>cultural evolution and research into memory, so maybe the gap might be
>>hard to bridge. Plus, both memes and engrams are somewhat chimeric and
>>elusive in nature, so the study is difficult, I would assume.
>
>In short, there is nothing evolutionary about the term 'engram.' The
>L-meme (I assume this is what you mean by 'internal meme') is by
>definition a participant in evolutionary processes. Additionally, the
>L-meme suggests significant parallels to genetics. Few miss the
>similarities between the word meme and gene.
>
>As to the chimeric nature of a meme, this is entirely the result of one's
>definition. The L-meme is no more chimeric than a gene.
>
>If one looks at the reviews of memetics books by established periodicals
>like Science and Nature, they will find the scientific establishment
>gives little credit to the term 'meme.' Of particular concern is an
>apparent use of tautology by memeticists.
>
>Wilson in his Science review of Blackmore's Meme Machine says:
>
>"Part of the problem stems from the replicator concept, which has led to
>some interesting insights but often merely redescribes the familiar...
>selfish memes often turn out to be a convoluted way to describe the
>obvious. ..The ability to define fitness independently of what evolves
>saves the concept of natural selection from being a tautology. For the
>meme concept to escape the same problem, we must define cultural fitness
>independently of what evolves. If the first four notes of Beethoven's
>fifth is a powerful meme only because it is common, we have achieved no
>insight."
>
>Later, Wilson suggests a solution:
>
>"More problems arise when we try to think of culture as broken into
>replicating units like genes. Unlike genes, memes do not exist in a
>physical form."
>
>As far as I can tell, this critique addresses the unfortunate use of the
>G-meme construct without a foundation in L-meme physical reality. Meme
>Machine is an essay on G-memes. It explicitly chooses to ignore brain
>physiology and thus can hardly avoid tautology. If one adds the L-meme
>construct, the G-meme becomes rooted in established evolutionary theory
>and finds clear links to reality. The tautology problem is solved.
>
>Mark
>
>===============================================================
>This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
>Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
>For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
>see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit