From: "Aaron Agassi" <agassi@erols.com>
To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk>
Subject: RE: i-memes and m-memes
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 15:40:51 -0400
In-Reply-To: <37D170B6.25028A3A@pacbell.net>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf
> Of Bill Spight
> Sent: Saturday, September 04, 1999 3:19 PM
> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Subject: Re: i-memes and m-memes
>
>
> Dear Aaron:
>
> Aaron:
>
> Are memes only social information or truisms? No, because an
> impression once derived from Nature is transmissible. Why is it
> only a meme in second generation? Are there potential memes in
> the mind of the originator? Are there potential potential memes
> in Nature? You see the problem that is solved only if all is memetic.
>
> Bill:
>
> Well, all phenomena are grist for the memetic mill. So we could
> call them memetic, in a broad sense.
>
> I agree that transmission is not necessary for something to be a
> meme. Just as a gene need not be transmitted to be a gene. OTOH,
> if we wish to operationalize the concept, we might as well
> require transmission, either before or after formation. (A
> mutation {new form} might not be transmitted once it has taken
> shape, but it was transmitted before.) What is lost?
>
> An obvious objection is that if transmission is required for
> something to be a meme, how can we tell that something is a meme
> before it is transmitted? Answer: we can't, but so what?
>
> Bill:
>
> <<
> differences between how we confront natural and cultural phenomena.
> >>
>
> Aaron:
>
> And what is that supposed distinction?
>
> Bill:
>
> In this context, cultural phenomena involve human-human
> interaction. (That's a rudimentary distinction.)
>
> Culture has been defined in many ways, not all of which agree in
> detail. As I have mentioned before, Weber focuses on the question
> of human purpose. In those terms, time is natural; clock time is cultural.
But so what? Comprehension still comes into play, whether in understanding
natural events or deliberate messages. One difference often noted between
life in nature and life in society is consensus Vs Ontology and context Vs
Epistemology. Never the less, the operations of the mind, that may be said
to be memetic, are rather much the same.
>
> Bill:
>
> <<
> Some believe that the mind is highly modular (the Swiss Army
> knife model). I think that there is a good bit of exaptation,
> that is, that skills evolved in one area are applied to others.
> >>
>
> Aaron:
>
> But if the same skill is applied to the same task in either case,
> then what is the difference in kind?
>
> Bill:
>
> With exaptation, the skill is applied to a different task. Since
> it is the same skill, there is no difference.
>
> However, much research in the last generation has shown that many
> cognitive skills depend upon context and content. Ideally, that
> might not be so, but that's how it is. At the same time, I think
> that the modularity of cognitive skills is often overstated.
Yes, society is contextual while Nature is Ontological.
>
> Aaron:
>
> Meaning is derived from nature
>
> Bill:
>
> That is a modern Western meme.
>
> Aaron:
>
> Even Nature may be said to transmit.
>
> Bill:
>
> That is so. However, there is no small value in limiting the
> domain of discourse.
In this case, that remains to be demonstrated. The only important
distinction coming to light now is that social context memes are distinctly
unnatural.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Bill
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit