From: "Aaron Agassi" <agassi@erols.com>
To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk>
Subject: RE: The information theoretic view Was: JOM
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 17:38:49 -0400
In-Reply-To: <uQuZj2AIpqz3Ew5D@faichney.demon.co.uk>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk [mailto:fmb-majordomo@mmu.ac.uk]On Behalf
> Of Robin Faichney
> Sent: Thursday, September 02, 1999 12:48 PM
> To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
> Subject: Re: The information theoretic view Was: JOM
>
>
> In message <NBBBIIDKHCMGAIPMFFPJEEIPDJAA.richard@brodietech.com>,
> Richard Brodie <richard@brodietech.com> writes
> >James McComb:
> >
> ><<Strictly speaking, a meme is not a brain pattern, artifact or behavior,
> >but
> >the information it carries. On the information-theoretic view,
> memes are not
> >physical objects. Instead, memes should be regarded as 'information' or
> >'instructions' that is 'encoded' in physical objects.>>
> >
> >Correct. And the word "meme" means such information in a mind, whose
> >existence influences events such that more copies of itself get
> created in
> >other minds. Information outside of minds that causes replicas
> of itself to
> >be created is galled, generically, a "replicator." replicators include
> >genes, memes, and anything else.
>
> Richard, you're not addressing the point that these replicators internal
> and external to the brain are the *same*. For every meme in the brain
> there is a meme encoded in behaviour, and quite likely one encoded in an
> artefact too, but in fact these are all the same meme, and there is only
> one, in these different forms, en/decoded as it is copied back and
> forward. Why have more than one name when there's only one thing?
>
> ><<Memes are, in Robin's words, 'peripatetic'. Memetic
> information is encoded
> >in brains (i-form), and it is also encoded in behaviors and artifacts
> >(m-form). This view dissolves the genotype/phenotype distinction
> (and with
> >it any Lamarckian worries). It also solves Derek Gatherer's problem about
> >the location of mutations. Mutations can occur in both the i-form and the
> >m-form of a meme.>>
> >
> >The problem is that it's not just ENCODED in the mind---it actually is
> >active and influencing the future when it is in the mind.
>
> Aaargh! There's that "active" word again! When I castigated Jake, way
> back, for using it without being able to define it -- I went so far as
> to accuse him of mysticism or the like -- you *agreed* with me! So what
> are you doing with it here? Define it or drop it!
I'm Heraclitian enough to take a stab at it:
First of all, let us consider long term memory encoded. That may well be
dormant, at one time or another. Those structures may even prove to be
archived in preserved brains. But, clearly, ideas are not always dormant in
the brain. Memes are even assembled into memplexes, or otherwise mutated or
re-engineered. I don't know how well we really understand it, but there it
is! Neurology is not only structure but process.
>
> >That's what makes
> >memes special.
>
> I did wonder about your repetition of "special". Now I know what's
> behind it. But I won't abuse "mystic" or "mysticism" again. There are
> plenty of people very willing to do so who have the excuse of not
> knowing what these words actually mean. Instead, I'll call you a
> "mystifier". Unless/until you satisfactorily define "active", anyway.
I would say that I have supplied a beginning.
> --
> Robin Faichney
> Get Your FREE Information at
> http://www.conscious-machine.com
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit