Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990521145623.00dc4fd0@popmail.mcs.net>
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 14:56:23 -0500
To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
From: Aaron Lynch <aaron@mcs.net>
Subject: Re: "Speed Seduction" revisited
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.95q.990521134931.17920C-100000@marple.umd.edu>
At 01:59 PM 5/21/99 -0400, Lawrence H. de Bivort wrote:
>On Fri, 21 May 1999, Aaron Lynch wrote:
>
>>At 12:13 PM 5/21/99 -0400, Lawrence H. de Bivort wrote:
>
>>>This matter of "seduction" prompts me to write.
>>>
>>>The creation of rapport or linkage between two people has little, I think,
>>>to do with memes. Rapport is simply a matter of creating the (real or
>>>false) sense of similarity with another person. This can be achieved
>SNIP
>
>>>Memes are something else: they are artifacts that disseminate themselves
>>>through the medium of people and other social organizations. They have
>>>several properties that enable them to do so. They _may_ utilize the
>>>dynamics of linkage to do so, but do not require it. Either way, linkage
>>>or rapport as such do not have memetic properties.
>
>Aaron Lynch:
>
>>Basically I agree, except on the terminological point of whether
>>artifactual replicators should be called memes in addition to or instead of
>>brain-stored information.
>
>Right, by by 'artifact' I only meant a 'thing' that has been created, not
>a 'natural thing.' I know that this has been a matter of some debate in
>memetic circles. I see memes as artifacts that transmit 'ideas' or beliefs
>through language and symbols.
>
>>The question of whether "Speed Seduction" tactics create rapport is a
>>matter of debate, however. And there is the matter of sexism, too.
>
>Thanks for the summary of "Speed Seduction" -- I hadn't heard of it until
>the present discussion. I can't tell from what you say whether the
>techniques recommended might be effective in establishing rapport. It
>sounds a bit like poorly-done NLP (I'm referring to the ill-formed
>embedded command). I would not consider an embedded command (poorly
>designed ot not) a meme, though, in the same way that any command is not a
>meme (i.e. it is not, among other things, self-replicating). "Influence"
>is not the same thing as "meme".
Thank you, Lawrence.
Yes, I agree: "influence" is not the same thing as meme transmission,
although it has been confused for such. Recursion is essential to
evolutionary replicator theories.
>I will not bother to comment on the moral or sexist aspects of this,
>other then to say that from a personal point of view it is always a shame
>to see bright (or even not so bright) people waste their talents on such
>stupidity.
The insults that Ross Jeffries gave me came during an ostensible effort to
sell me his product. So regardless of the moral/sexist matters, I can
safely say that he shows little comprehension of how to establish rapport
with prospective customers.
--Aaron Lynch
http://www.mcs.net/~aaron/thoughtcontagion.html
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