Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 18:21:56 -0500
From: "Robert G. Grimes" <grimes@fcol.com>
To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Is a meme a thing?
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Jay,
Mark's response "tripped" my conversation box over! The reason is that I
think "everything is a thing." Or to phrase it in another, more personal,
way, I usually say, "Everything is organic." This might seem to be
contradictory but it handles the "concept/thing" controversy handily, in my
opinion.
The problem (or the source) lies in the human process of "abstracting" our
information through our senses, applying additional abstractive levels to
those abstractions in our nervous system (and elsewhere, probably) in the
form of "thoughts, feelings, et al," and through language (including
mathematics, art, music, other forms of symbology, etc.).
The minute these organic processes become represented externally by what I
call "tokens," which may be words, formulae, music, etc., and are
transmitted, folks tend to call them things as the tokens represent what may
be called "concepts" and are simply "seeds" of what the tokens represent
within the human organism with all of its associative networks. As each
individual organism has an experiential library of unique associative records
or images, etc., depending upon where they are stored, none of these
associative "constructs" can be "identical" from individual to individual (or
even in the same individual, from moment to moment).
Thus, the spoken, written, or otherwise symbolized "tokens" represent a
relative rich assembly of organic, synaptic constructs within each individual
which are different in each individual but, in many instances, are "close
enough for government work" (my word description of the relative
representations) and that enables us to converse, be relatively "understood,"
and to "time-bind" by allowing successive generations to not have to reinvent
the wheel but be able to start off from where the previous generation left
off.
At the same time, the distinctions between these functions, i.e., tokens
representing verisimilitudinous synaptic relationships within the organisms,
tend to allow individuals to "confuse the map with the territory," confuse
the symbols with the "thing." Thus, we are gifted with the ability to
communicate, theorize, etc., about the extensional world which we know only
by the abstractions of our senses or others' abstractions which we have had
communicated to us through different means (many have a very difficult time
separating these sources, creating the problem of "verbal IQ" as compared to
"performance IQ," etc.). Yet, we never "truly" know these things except in
our own unique manner. Thus, in this sense, everything is "organic" (or
things) in my opinion, including our thoughts, hopes, language expressions
(some of which are memes), etc.
I will have to restrain myself because I could go on forever with these
thoughts but, hopefully, I have added a little to Mark's stimulating
comments.
Holler if you feel I have misspoken or been unclear.
Cordially,
Bob
Mark Mills wrote:
> Jay,
>
> Is a 'meme' a thing?
>
> No. It is a concept.
>
> Is there debate on this subject?
>
> Yes, there is a great deal of debate.
>
> Sniped for brevity
-- Bob Grimeshttp://members.aol.com/bob5266/ http://www.hotwired.com/members/profile/bobinjax/ http://www.phonefree.com/Scripts/cgiParse.exe?sID=28788 Jacksonville, Florida Bob5266@aol.com robert.grimes@excite.com Bobgrimes@zdnetmail.com
Man is not in control, but the man who knows he is not in control is more in control...
Quoth the Raven, "Nevermore....."
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Jay,Mark's response "tripped" my conversation box over! The reason is that I think "everything is a thing." Or to phrase it in another, more personal, way, I usually say, "Everything is organic." This might seem to be contradictory but it handles the "concept/thing" controversy handily, in my opinion.
The problem (or the source) lies in the human process of "abstracting" our information through our senses, applying additional abstractive levels to those abstractions in our nervous system (and elsewhere, probably) in the form of "thoughts, feelings, et al," and through language (including mathematics, art, music, other forms of symbology, etc.).
The minute these organic processes become represented externally by what I call "tokens," which may be words, formulae, music, etc., and are transmitted, folks tend to call them things as the tokens represent what may be called "concepts" and are simply "seeds" of what the tokens represent within the human organism with all of its associative networks. As each individual organism has an experiential library of unique associative records or images, etc., depending upon where they are stored, none of these associative "constructs" can be "identical" from individual to individual (or even in the same individual, from moment to moment).
Thus, the spoken, written, or otherwise symbolized "tokens" represent a relative rich assembly of organic, synaptic constructs within each individual which are different in each individual but, in many instances, are "close enough for government work" (my word description of the relative representations) and that enables us to converse, be relatively "understood," and to "time-bind" by allowing successive generations to not have to reinvent the wheel but be able to start off from where the previous generation left off.
At the same time, the distinctions between these functions, i.e., tokens representing verisimilitudinous synaptic relationships within the organisms, tend to allow individuals to "confuse the map with the territory," confuse the symbols with the "thing." Thus, we are gifted with the ability to communicate, theorize, etc., about the extensional world which we know only by the abstractions of our senses or others' abstractions which we have had communicated to us through different means (many have a very difficult time separating these sources, creating the problem of "verbal IQ" as compared to "performance IQ," etc.). Yet, we never "truly" know these things except in our own unique manner. Thus, in this sense, everything is "organic" (or things) in my opinion, including our thoughts, hopes, language expressions (some of which are memes), etc.
I will have to restrain myself because I could go on forever with these thoughts but, hopefully, I have added a little to Mark's stimulating comments.
Holler if you feel I have misspoken or been unclear.
Cordially,
Bob
Mark Mills wrote:
Jay,Is a 'meme' a thing?
No. It is a concept.
Is there debate on this subject?
Yes, there is a great deal of debate.
--
Bob Grimeshttp://members.aol.com/bob5266/
http://www.hotwired.com/members/profile/bobinjax/
http://www.phonefree.com/Scripts/cgiParse.exe?sID=28788
Jacksonville, Florida
Bob5266@aol.com robert.grimes@excite.com Bobgrimes@zdnetmail.comMan is not in control, but the man who knows he is not in control is more in control...
Quoth the Raven, "Nevermore....."
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