Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:07:26 +0000
From: Bruce Howlett <bhowlett@metz.une.edu.au>
To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Associative learning versus imitation - JoM Article
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BMSDGATH wrote: (snip)
> > And is imitation really so rare in non-human animals?
>
> Well, birdsong aside, yes (King 1991, Edwards 1994).
>
> > Let us toy with the idea that dogs can imitate their owners.
>
> Let us prove it rather than toy with it. (I suspect they don't but
> can offer no evidence either way - references anyone???)
Derek,
I am not an animal behaviorist but I have had many years experience training
horses and dogs and I would like to make some (unscientific) observations.
Firstly, the major difference between horses and dogs is that horses are prey
animals and dogs are predators. This is a major consideration when training
domesticated animals. Dogs are easier to train because they recognise us as
fellow predators (binocular vision and smell) and have a similar pack
mentality. The most difficult part of horse training is to convince the horse
that we are not intending to eat him/her. The best way to do that is to handle
the new born foal as soon as possible after birth and try to get some of the
"mother bond" transferred. An 11 month old filly I am working with at the
moment is convinced I am part horse and that she is part human. The key to this
is understanding what "buttons" to push to get a horse to behave the way we want
rather than the way they want. This is basically achieved by making the
desirable outcomes easy and the undesirable outcomes difficult and having a
sense for split second timing required to "reward" the horse the moment you know
it has comprehended and cooperated.
The similarity between horses, dogs and humans is that they are all "social"
animals with distinct hierarchies that recognise dominance and subservience.
Training is a much higher level activity than imitation, it is actually
communication. With working dogs, ie: sheep and cattle dogs, it is relatively
easy to teach them cues and commands for activities which are intrinsic to their
"natural" activities as a pack hunting predator. In this situation, the human,
even if on horseback, becomes a member of the pack. Ask any experienced rider
and they will tell you about the extraordinary and euphoric feeling of being in
total sync with a horse performing a difficult manoeuvre, whether cutting out a
steer or a dressage test or a cross country event. This is high level
communication of a sort more subtle, continuous and cooperative than mere
language.
I simultaneously laugh and groan when I hear you suggest that the intellectually
challenged bird is considered the only bona fide imitator in the animal kingdom.
Regards,
Bruce.
Bruce Howlett. B.A.L., J.P.
Email: bhowlett@metz.une.edu.au
Researching: Management of Change in Organizations: The Culture Concept
at the University of New England
Armidale NSW 2350
AUSTRALIA
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BMSDGATH wrote: (snip)
> And is imitation really so rare in non-human animals?Derek,Well, birdsong aside, yes (King 1991, Edwards 1994).
> Let us toy with the idea that dogs can imitate their owners.
Let us prove it rather than toy with it. (I suspect they don't but
can offer no evidence either way - references anyone???)
I am not an animal behaviorist but I have had many years experience training horses and dogs and I would like to make some (unscientific) observations.
Firstly, the major difference between horses and dogs is that horses are prey animals and dogs are predators. This is a major consideration when training domesticated animals. Dogs are easier to train because they recognise us as fellow predators (binocular vision and smell) and have a similar pack mentality. The most difficult part of horse training is to convince the horse that we are not intending to eat him/her. The best way to do that is to handle the new born foal as soon as possible after birth and try to get some of the "mother bond" transferred. An 11 month old filly I am working with at the moment is convinced I am part horse and that she is part human. The key to this is understanding what "buttons" to push to get a horse to behave the way we want rather than the way they want. This is basically achieved by making the desirable outcomes easy and the undesirable outcomes difficult and having a sense for split second timing required to "reward" the horse the moment you know it has comprehended and cooperated.
The similarity between horses, dogs and humans is that they are all "social" animals with distinct hierarchies that recognise dominance and subservience. Training is a much higher level activity than imitation, it is actually communication. With working dogs, ie: sheep and cattle dogs, it is relatively easy to teach them cues and commands for activities which are intrinsic to their "natural" activities as a pack hunting predator. In this situation, the human, even if on horseback, becomes a member of the pack. Ask any experienced rider and they will tell you about the extraordinary and euphoric feeling of being in total sync with a horse performing a difficult manoeuvre, whether cutting out a steer or a dressage test or a cross country event. This is high level communication of a sort more subtle, continuous and cooperative than mere language.
I simultaneously laugh and groan when I hear you suggest that the intellectually challenged bird is considered the only bona fide imitator in the animal kingdom.
Regards,
Bruce.