From: "Paul Marsden" <PaulMarsden@email.msn.com>
To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: On Gatherer's behaviourist stance
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 19:40:06 +0100
Mario wrote
>The community of memeticists does not seem to agree about what
>should be called a meme.Saying, like Paul, 'Never mind, and let me do
applied memetics now' doesn't
>work.
Thank you for this enlightening and constructive comment on what I don't
recall saying - I was simply suggesting that by applying the memetic stance,
we can already begin to explain empirical human activity from a selectionist
paradigm, including importantly the vast body of social contagion research.
More generally, using the selectionist paradigm to explain socio-cultural
phenomena can, and has worked. See for example.
Joseph Lopreato From Social Evolutionism To Biocultural Evolutionism
Sociological Forum 1990 Vol. 5 No. 2
Crippen, T Toward A Neo-Darwinian Sociology - Its Nomological Principles
And Some Illustrative Applications Sociological Perspectives, 1994, Vol.37,
No.3, Pp.309-335
Sanderson, S.K. (1994) Evolutionary Materialism: A Theoretical Strategy for
the study of Social Evolution in Sociological Perspectives 37 no. 1 pp.
47-73
Dietz_T, Burns_Tr Human Agency And The Evolutionary Dynamics Of Culture Acta
Sociologica, 1992, Vol.35, No.3, Pp.187-200
Macy_Mw, Flache_A Beyond Rationality In Models Of Choice, Annual Review Of
Sociology, 1995, Vol.21, Pp.73-91
Masters, Rd, In Search Of Human-Nature - The Decline And Revival Of
Darwinism In American Social Thought - Degler,Cn Politics And The Life
Sciences, 1992, Vol.11, No.2, Pp.279-281
Conein_B Ethology And Sociology - The Contribution Ethology Has Made To The
Theory Of Social-Interaction Revue Francaise De Sociologie, 1992, Vol.33,
No.1, Pp.87-104
Maasen_S, Weingart_P, Metaphors-Messengers Of Meaning - A Contribution To An
Evolutionary Sociology Of Science Science Communication, 1995, Vol.17, No.1,
Pp.9-31
Blute_M History Versus Science: The Evolutionary Solution Canadian Journal
Of Sociology-Cahiers Canadiens De Sociologie, 1997, Vol.22, No.3, Pp.345-364
Agnew_Nm, Ford_Km, Hayes_Pj Expertise In Context - Personally Constructed,
Socially Selected, And Reality-Relevant International Journal Of Expert
Systems, 1994, Vol.7, No.1, Pp.65-88
Tushman_Ml, Rosenkopf_L Organizational Determinants Of
Technological-Change - Toward A Sociology Of Technological Evolution.
Research In Organizational Behavior, 1992, Vol.14, Pp.311-347
Burns T, and Dietz, T 1992 "Cultural Evolution: Social Rule Systems,
Selection, and Human Agency." International Sociology, Vol. 7: 259 283.
Palmer_Dc, Donahoe_Jw Essentialism And Selectionism In Cognitive Science And
Behavior Analysis American Psychologist, 1992, Vol.47, No.11, Pp.1344-1358
Simon, H.A. (1990) A Mechanism for social selection and successful altruism.
Science, 250, 1665-1668.
Paul Marsden
Graduate Research Centre in the Social Sciences
University of Sussex
e-mail PaulMarsden@msn.com
tel/fax (44) (0) 117 974 1279
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission:
http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit/
-----Original Message-----
From: Mario Vaneechoutte <Mario.Vaneechoutte@rug.ac.be>
To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk <memetics@mmu.ac.uk>
Date: 14 September 1998 08:49
Subject: Re: On Gatherer's behaviourist stance
>
>
>Bill Benzon wrote:
>
>> Mario Vaneechoutte wrote:
>>
>> > I can see what you mean, I think. But than, imagine the child is laying
in bed and starts
>> > thinking. Because it is dark, it does not observe objects or
behaviours, but it uses mental
>> > representations of these objects to do its thinking. Isn't it having
mental memes?
>>
>> The child is having thoughs and images, but they aren't memes. They're
just thoughts and
>> images.
>
>Well, it is a matter of definition. Some, like Dawkins, would call these
memes and actually it is
>one of the earliest definitions. The community of memeticists does not seem
to agree about what
>should be called a meme.Saying, like Paul, 'Never mind, and let me do
applied memetics now' doesn't
>work. It is like chemists doing chemistry without agreement on what an atom
is.
>Some, like Paul, even don't agree that there is something like thoughts
inside our brain. They are
>abstract models.
>
>
>
>
>>
>>
>> > Aren't
>> > there representations of real objects, or of statements it has heard
(like: Marc Dutroux is
>> > evil) inside the child's brain? Can't we call these Dawkinian B memes?
>>
>> One can do that. But, for better or worse, that just isn't how I think
about things.
>> Bill
>
>Mario
>
>
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This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit