Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 19:30:05 -0700
From: Dale Fletter <dfletter@sirius.com>
To: memetics@mmu.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Emotional memes?
Thanks for the background. I am new to this listserve so I don't have the history
on these threads. My apologies for making you repeat old material.
I agree with most all of what you said. The hair I was splitting was whether it
makes sense to characterize the meme by the human expression it generates. As you
said yourself, the same meme can have multiple expressions depending upon
associative network. Wouldn't it be more technically accurate, if more awkward,
to have a handle for the meme that is not associated with a variable expression
of that meme? In your football example, the one side might refer to it as the
"victorious" meme while the other would call the same meme the "vanquished" meme.
As a convenient shorthand, we might agree to call it the "victorious" gene but
"football" meme or even better yet "england980824-001" might be the way to go in
a way similar to how viruses are named by the scientists who study them. (I agree
the yeast metaphor was dumb; it didn't make the point I thought it did when I
wrote it.)
The last posting also causes me to ask a question that is probably best answered
in a FAQ file somewhere. I am confused about nomenclature on this board. On the
one hand:
"... Since the most of us have concluded that the meme in transmission is not the
same as the meme within the organism...",
which is something I understand and endorse, but then later
"...Again, most of us have come to the general conclusion that the meme does not
exist out side of the mind for obvious reasons that have been discussed
previously..."
Is this second belief trying to state that the meme in transmission is different
than the expression of the meme? I certainly agree with that. Am I correct that
this second statement should not be taken literally that the meme does not exist
outside the mind? If so, how can it be transmitted from one person to the next?
If you meant this literally, then please point me toward a discussion of how the
meme passes from one host to another or provide me with the correct term for the
meme-in-transmission.
thx
Robert G. Grimes wrote:
> We have discussed previously the possibilities of why different memes have
> different rates of diffusion (diffusion of innovation) or replication in the
> organisms. It is unlikely that this rate is caused by the same things for
> different memes just as it is unlikely that the recipient will get the same
> memetic message as the next recipient from the same meme. Although there is
> a likelihood that there will be some similarity with certain specific
> memes. Since the most of us have concluded that the meme in transmission is
> not the same as the meme within the organism, considering the combined
> effects of the filtering and the cognitive milieu (which I frequently refer
> to as the "associative network," implying all of the associative "hooks or
> vectors" within our cognitive millieu), it would also follow that each
> organism would get "different strokes from different folks," meaning the meme
> would be unique within our system because of those associative
> considerations, biochemistry, and our previous conditioning (same thing?).
> Thus, it would be very disappointing if the memetic presence didn't have some
> emotional impact in any of a multitude of ways, probably multifaceted, and
> since each recipient's cognitive millieu is unique, other factors such as
> explanatory coherence, would differ greatly with the recipient also.
>
> We would probably agree that the most powerful memes would provoke greater
> emotional rewards within a greater size group, almost by definition. Now the
> emotion, again, would not have to be limited to one or another but more than
> likely would be a complex of responses and would more than likely even be
> juxtoposed or conflicting in different recipients. The competitive nature of
> memes and neurotransmitters on different levels would also enter into these
> resultants, with one meme satisfying an entirely differently distributed
> constellation of resultants within one organism and another. The combination
> of subsequent interactions might mean that a meme would make one recipient
> feel sexy, angry, etc., and another soothed and powerful, but if the effects
> were greater on a greater number of folks, stimulating replication, then the
> relative potency of the individual meme would be greater, regardless of the
> span of results.
>
> It doesn't take much to understand that a cheerful nature, remark, facies,
> etc., coupled with a meme that may be rewarding emotionally (in many ways)
> would "spread the faith." In fact, that used to be a meme that I used for a
> long time, "keep the faith," which had nothing to do (with me) with religion
> but when delivered with a smile, reassuring non verbal attitudes, and a
> cheerful, friendly voice, begat good feelings in return. In fact, sometimes
> the general nature of the meme, i.e., a structure capable of a multitude of
> meanings, might even make it all the more effective. Religious folks, of
> different faiths, would each respond positively as there was no specific
> identification and the obvious "good wishes" non verbal accompaniment would
> encourage them to respond to the next person more favorably, statistically
> speaking. Whereas, when there was no religious message "identification" or
> association with any "specific faith," I might only offend some militant
> atheist, etc. Being an atheist myself there was little risk in the latter
> resultant.
>
> As to the analogy with yeast, there may be little fermentation sans the yeast
> and, certainly, never the rate or degree of fermentation without the yeast,
> but one doesn't attempt to make alcohol with just the yeast. Again, most of
> us have come to the general conclusion that the meme does not exist out side
> of the mind for obvious reasons that have been discussed previously. It
> takes the meme "in situ" to make the resultant, where ever and whatever that
> may be...
>
> So, I personally see nothing wrong with the concept of memes stimulating
> emotions (in fact I would be startled if they didn't) with a great range and
> impact. Remember my recent posting about the experiment testing the
> testosterone output of fans watching football matches? The male fans'
> testosterone levels rose during the game with the cheers and activity, higher
> in the fans of the winning teams, with a marked difference after the game
> between the winners (elevated) and losers (down) which persisted through the
> next few days of the experiment.
>
> Couple all of these concepts with the myriad of responses capable of being
> stimulated, depressed or not affected in an organism by a meme or meme
> complex and one would really be disappointed if memes didn't produce
> emotional changes in the recipients, even if it were soporific (counting
> sheep)... Then add the interaction of memes and one gets a really
> complicated but fascinating picture of complexity... You know, I may be
> getting a little stimulated with this discussion, too!
>
> Cordially,
>
> Bob
>
> Dale Fletter wrote:
>
> > This post might be splitting hairs, but I am hoping this is the place to
> > do it if it is to be done at all.
> >
> > I think it is improper to characterize a meme as emotional or spreading
> > emotion. It sounds like calling yeast alcohol generators.
>
> > Snip
>
> Bob Grimes
>
> http://members.aol.com/bob5266/
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> Bob5266@aol.com robert.grimes@mailexcite.com Bobgrimes@zdnetmail.com
>
> Man is not in control, but the man who knows he is not in control is more in
> control...
>
> Quoth the Raven, "Nevermore....."
>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
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===============================================================
This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit